Factory loaded .308 match ammo for long range

[jkv45]

I know members here are mostly interested in hand loading, but as a pretty new rifle shooter, I'm concentrating on my shooting technique before getting into reloading.

I recently attended a basic long (mid) range class, and shot out to 600 yards for the first time using my Savage Model 10 FCP HS Precision with Federal GMM 168gr. My rifle shot them at under 1 MOA at 100 yards, and they performed very well at 600 yards for me.

Looking past 600 yards, what have others found for factory .308 ammunition that will do well in the 800 to 1000 yard distance?

I'm planning on testing some Federal GMM 175gr, but was also considering some Lapua factory ammo. Would the 155gr Scenar-L or 175gr Scenar-L be a better choice? Are there others like Fiocchi or Hornady factory ammo that have performed well at those distances for you?

All of it is pretty pricey, but the difference between them isn't that significant.

I have a fair amount of FGMM 168, purchased very reasonably quite a while ago, that I'll be using for reloading brass eventually, and the Lapua brass seems to be high quality as well.

Thanks.

[CFJunkie]

I think I already mentioned this, but for hand loads.

Your new rifle will tell you what shoots best in its barrel.
168 gr GMM SMKs should perfrom great at 600 yards.

If you really want to reach out further than that, the 175 gr GMM SMKs should perform better ballistically, as long as your barrel likes the heavier weight.
Factory ammo muzzle velocities are high enough to keep the 175 grain bullets supersonic out to 1,000 yards.
The 175 Scenar ammo should also have the same ballistic advantage.

The 155 grain bullets are a bit light to maintain their velocity out that far but they also might shoot really well in your rifle.

I have two .308 Savages - one likes 155 grain bullets better than 175 grain bullets but shoots 168 grain bullets almost as well as the 155s.
The other shoots 175 and 195 grain bullets best. Same length 24 inch barrels. Your barrels will tell you the answer.

As for brass, I use Lapua brass for all my most accurate bolt action rifles.
My experience shows that Lapua brass will last a lot longer than Federal brass (up to 3 times the number of reloads if you are not loading near Pmax) - but it is more expensive to buy.
However, even with the added purchase price, Lapua brass is still cheaper overall when you factor in the additional reloads.

I'm not sure that you would see any difference in the accuracy using either brass in the first few reloads, assuming you learn how to reload for precision shooting.

[jkv45]

Thanks CF.

For starters, I think I'll compare 175gr Federal and Lapua to see what my barrel prefers. My rifle does seem to like 168 SMKs just fine. They went right where they should at 600 yards.

I did study your hand loading results for future reference, but it's a bit over my head at this point.

[Robinhood]

I second 175 FGMM

[jkv45]

I second 175 FGMM

Definitely will give it a shot.

Does anyone recall the regular price of FGMM 175gr, about 2 years ago, before all this !#$%^& started?

[NF1E]

I load most of my own but have found LC M118 LR puts most of the other commercial ammo to shame. 175 gn FGMM is usually available but at the bottom of my go to ammo list.

[hamiltonkiler]

The 168gns smk is fine at 1000yds if the winds not blowing.

Yes the 175gn are better but less accurate at 100-600yds maybe and hold better at 600+ because they don’t get blown around the same.
A big arse piece of card board or ply wood will tell you all you need to know.

Hold in the same spot and group shoot both will tell the story.

Cheers.


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[jkv45]

The 168gns smk is fine at 1000yds if the winds not blowing.

Yes the 175gn are better but less accurate at 100-600yds maybe and hold better at 600+ because they don’t get blown around the same.
A big arse piece of card board or ply wood will tell you all you need to know.

Hold in the same spot and group shoot both will tell the story.

Cheers.

Doesn't FGMM 168 run out of gas by 800yds or so, due to its BC?

Can you get out past that with the 168 SMK and hand loads at higher velocity?

[hamiltonkiler]

Doesn't FGMM 168 run out of gas by 800yds or so, due to its BC?

Can you get out past that with the 168 SMK and hand loads at higher velocity?

Welp. Go shoot it at 1000 on paper and see.
It works down south in thick air at sea level. Going from sonic to trans is tough. Tough if the winds blowing. I’m not supposed to be able to shoot 77gn bullets from a 1-9 .223
But it works.
How often really will you shoot at 1k yds?
The .308 isn’t really the right tool.
Neither is my 22lr at 350 but it’s fun.


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[jkv45]

Welp. Go shoot it at 1000 on paper and see.
It works down south in thick air at sea level. Going from sonic to trans is tough. Tough if the winds blowing. I’m not supposed to be able to shoot 77gn bullets from a 1-9 .223
But it works.
How often really will you shoot at 1k yds?
The .308 isn’t really the right tool.
Neither is my 22lr at 350 but it’s fun.

Not very often most likely, and I haven't yet, but there is a 1200 yd range about 30 min from me.

I realize 1000+ is pushing it with the .308, and if I'm going to give it a try I'll do some research and testing to give myself the best chance of success possible.

If it's been proven over and over that the 168 doesn't do well out that far, and the 175 does better, I'm going to at least try the better option.

This is all for fun at this point, but I do like to hit what I'm aiming at.

[GaCop]

Welp. Go shoot it at 1000 on paper and see.
It works down south in thick air at sea level. Going from sonic to trans is tough. Tough if the winds blowing. I’m not supposed to be able to shoot 77gn bullets from a 1-9 .223
But it works.
How often really will you shoot at 1k yds?
The .308 isn’t really the right tool.
Neither is my 22lr at 350 but it’s fun.


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My 9 twist Savage 26" fluted barrel LOVES the 77 grain TMK over 24 grains of CFE223. I seat them .010" OTL, 2843 fps and at 200 yards 5 group into .618" on a 90 degree day with 95% humidity.

[darkker]

Doesn't FGMM 168 run out of gas by 800yds or so, due to its BC?

Can you get out past that with the 168 SMK and hand loads at higher velocity?

Here's the truth with actual details, that no one has told you. The reason the 168 was deemed not ideal for 1k shooting came from a cold year at Camp Perry, and how the bullet is designed.

The 168gr SMK was built with a steep 13° tail angle. This steep trail angle allows you to get a higher(pronounced sexier) BC, and not have a very long overall bullet length. Unfortunately this also crates an odd center-of-gravity Vs Center-of-pressure combination. Going way, WAY back to Dr. McCoy's ballistic work, it's been known that such a steep trail angle will cause turbulence in the transonic region. Combine that with a CG Vs CP issue and it's all but a guarantee that the bullet tumbles. As the boys discovered at a cold Camp Perry year, that ultimate distance varies with weather. Which was also not a new conveyor art the time.... Anyway, the military boys didn't like getting shown-up by the civies, and the military paid Sierra a pile of money to "fix the problem". The "fix" was a new bullet known as the 175 SMK. Which curiously enough has the same 9° tail angle that McCoy proved is dead stable crossing transonic region; not unlike the 173gr used in the 30-06.

With the latest set of construction updates from Sierra, it's possible they revamped the 168 tail angle. But until I could measure it, I wouldn't believe it

Cheers

[yobuck]

Here's the truth with actual details, that no one has told you. The reason the 168 was deemed not ideal for 1k shooting came from a cold year at Camp Perry, and how the bullet is designed.

The 168gr SMK was built with a steep 13° tail angle. This steep trail angle allows you to get a higher(pronounced sexier) BC, and not have a very long overall bullet length. Unfortunately this also crates an odd center-of-gravity Vs Center-of-pressure combination. Going way, WAY back to Dr. McCoy's ballistic work, it's been known that such a steep trail angle will cause turbulence in the transonic region. Combine that with a CG Vs CP issue and it's all but a guarantee that the bullet tumbles. As the boys discovered at a cold Camp Perry year, that ultimate distance varies with weather. Which was also not a new conveyor art the time.... Anyway, the military boys didn't like getting shown-up by the civies, and the military paid Sierra a pile of money to "fix the problem". The "fix" was a new bullet known as the 175 SMK. Which curiously enough has the same 9° tail angle that McCoy proved is dead stable crossing transonic region; not unlike the 173gr used in the 30-06.

With the latest set of construction updates from Sierra, it's possible they revamped the 168 tail angle. But until I could measure it, I wouldn't believe it

Cheers

But meanwhile, i suppose one could just touch the paint in order to find out? lol

[wbm]

No "wet paint" warning so yeah.

[hamiltonkiler]

Anything at 1000 isn’t a cake walk.
TV and real life is different. MOA at 1000 is 10”.

That’s pretty good.
A 300 win mag is a better option.

The black hills 168gn smk load will get you there. They all get there. It’s being able to read the wind. Even a 6.5 creedmor is tough at 1000.

Again go shoot at a big piece of something and write down your DOPE.

Not sure where you live but here it gets mid 90s to 100s and low as 20s

Big difference on performance depending on the season.
1000yds is spray and pray work untill you get into some real big guns.


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[jkv45]

Realistically, if I could hit what I'm aiming at out to 800 yards with my set-up and factory ammo - I'd be happy.

1 MOA at 800 yards is 8", and I'd also be very happy with that, but I wouldn't expect that consistently from me or my equipment at this point.

I do appreciate the insight and opinions.

[charlie b]

I never shot the 168SMK's beyond 600yd. There used to be a 'known' issue with the 168SMK beyond 600 but I suspect Sierra has 'fixed' that issue.

FWIW, the 155 ELD match bullets I use do well at 1000yd. I don't shoot that far very often, but, I did have a 12" group with them at 1000yd. Velocity at muzzle is 2800fps, at 1000 it is supposed to be over 1500fps. The Palma shooters contributed a lot to long range, lighter bullets in the .308.

[yobuck]

Anything at 1000 isn’t a cake walk.
TV and real life is different. MOA at 1000 is 10”.

That’s pretty good.
A 300 win mag is a better option.

The black hills 168gn smk load will get you there. They all get there. It’s being able to read the wind. Even a 6.5 creedmor is tough at 1000.

Again go shoot at a big piece of something and write down your DOPE.

Not sure where you live but here it gets mid 90s to 100s and low as 20s

Big difference on performance depending on the season.
1000yds is spray and pray work untill you get into some real big guns.


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When it comes to ahem, (reading the wind) i never advanced beyond a first grade reader.
Most of my friends havent either.
And ive never been invited to watch those who claim otherwise shoot. lol
No doubt being familiar with the shooting location can have at least some positive affect however.
But i do agree with the getting them there quicker having advantages.

[wbm]

I would recommend LC 15 M118 LR specifically over Fed 175 GMM.

+1.

[hamiltonkiler]

3moa at 1200 is 36” as I’m sure you know. I sure hope so.

Some where between 800-1000yds it goes transonic so it’s a crap shoot.


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[hamiltonkiler]

Great looking set up.
Bed the front of the action and recoil lug and give it another spin.

I wouldn’t dismiss the 168gn smks.

If your shooting take a note book.
The great thing with that scope is you can dial or shoot off the reticle. Your spotter should be able to call your shots if your paying for a class.

Cheers and good luck! Those 3/4-1” groups are great and fine.


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[jkv45]

Great looking set up.
Bed the front of the action and recoil lug and give it another spin.

I wouldn’t dismiss the 168gn smks.

If your shooting take a note book.
The great thing with that scope is you can dial or shoot off the reticle. Your spotter should be able to call your shots if your paying for a class.

Cheers and good luck! Those 3/4-1” groups are great and fine.

Thanks.

The HS Precision stock has an aluminum bedding block.

I have enough of the 175 for the class, and was surprised they grouped as well at 100 yds as the 168s I had used at 600. If I'm not mistaken, as it gets colder and the air get more dense, my maximum range will decrease. I think it's going to be close even with the 175s with their better bc.

I'm looking forward to it, but trying to keep my expectations realistic for my equipment and ability.

[yobuck]

Thanks.

The HS Precision stock has an aluminum bedding block.

I have enough of the 175 for the class, and was surprised they grouped as well at 100 yds as the 168s I had used at 600. If I'm not mistaken, as it gets colder and the air get more dense, my maximum range will decrease. I think it's going to be close even with the 175s with their better bc.

I'm looking forward to it, but trying to keep my expectations realistic for my equipment and ability.

While your at your class, and have the opportunity to shoot at the longer distances, let those results tell you the best bullet for your gun.
Not the BC number printed on the box.
Ask yourself this question, is the printed BC# the same for my 308 as it is for a 300 Win mag?
And is it also the same for a 300 Win mag as it is for a 300 ultra mag?

[jkv45]

While your at your class, and have the opportunity to shoot at the longer distances, let those results tell you the best bullet for your gun.
Not the BC number printed on the box.
Ask yourself this question, is the printed BC# the same for my 308 as it is for a 300 Win mag?
And is it also the same for a 300 Win mag as it is for a 300 ultra mag?

I think that's what I did - though not at long range. My best guess of which will work best, at long range, is based on the 100 yard group and its potential at extended range.

That's all I can test before the class. Really, I'm just excluding the one or ones that didn't do well.

I'm not just going by the bc listed on the box.

EDIT: This was the best target of the day with the Lapua 175gr Scenar-L (BC of .490). I think the vertical stringing is mostly operator error -

[yobuck]

I think that's what I did - though not at long range. My best guess of which will work best, at long range, is based on the 100 yard group and its potential at extended range.

That's all I can test before the class. Really, I'm just excluding the one or ones that didn't do well.

I'm not just going by the bc listed on the box.

If you intend using the gun for long range anything, you are better off if you shoot/test your bullets and loads at a longer distance than 100 yds.
Initial shooting at 100 is ok and setting your scope up for a 100 yd zero is also.
But you might find some bullets performing better as the distance increases than they do at 100 yds, 400 yds would be a better distance to shoot.
As for the BC, it is never a fixed number as you find printed on a box.
Thats actually false advertising that they can get away with because it is possible to achieve that number provided the proper velocity has been reached.
Never mind average Joe buyer might not reach it with his cartridge.
You have to actually shoot your gun at the various distances in order to find out which bullet works best.
The 308 is a great cartridge, especially for someone learning to shoot long range due to the wide selection of bullets available in 30 caliber.
And it is also a very good cartridge to keep up practicing with after you become proficient and have guns using larger cartridges.
But it is also just what it is, a 308, and just like every other cartridge that means it will only perform (well) out to a certain distance.
With the right combination of scope and mount system you might (lob) bullets out to a mile or even more with it.
And if on the particular day you shoot the wind conditions are good you might actually do pretty well.
But count that up as a winning lottery ticket, because thats what it amounts to.
Realistically, with good conditions, you can expect your 308 to be a good performer at least on targets out to about 1000 yds.
Make up your mind that 1000 yds is a very long shot, much longer than the average long range shot on animals anywhere in this country while hunting.
But then there is real world, and there is also dream world, and thats where many of us choose to live.
The lighter bullets should reach a higher velocity, and the velocity will more than offset any potential BC difference to some point down range.
Again, you can increase or decrease the BC # of a bullet by changing the velocity.
Take advantage of the opportunity to try those 168s at 1000 yds compared to the 175s.
Its all fun, and its all practice, and it can also be enlightening