Hi, newbie alert! :)
I'm looking at my first purchase and wanted some advice fro experienced shooters.
I need to select my first gun to get into long range competition shooting and I'm on a fairly tight budget.. I want it to shoot fairly well straight out of the box and be a great tool to learn with. I would also like it to have a lot of upgradability so that I can gradually change the components to improve it's performance as I build my own skills.
This guy has done two budget projects (1,000 yards for $500 and 1 mile for $1,000) and I generally like his overall approach, so that's what I'm currently considering.
So I have put together a shortlist of guns to choose from - all 6.5mm Creedmoor because I know I'd prefer improved crosswind performance and can just compensate for drop. Dealers appear to have really low stocks at the moment and I think there's an element of "Covid Pricing" going on too, so I'm struggling to find great deals like I've seen mentioned by others on the forum, but this is what I've found so far and I'd appreciate your opinions as to which way I should jump:
$299.99 22671 Savage Axis 6.5mm Creedmoor 22" https://www.rkguns.com/savage-axis-6...71-4rd-22.html
$299.99 22886 Savage Axis 6.5mm Creedmoor 22" Stainless https://www.impactguns.com/bolt-acti...64-22886/#wiki
$369.99 22099 Savage Axis II XP 6.5mm Creedmoor 22" / Bushnell Banner 3-9x40mm https://www.smga.com/savage/axis-ii-...r-w-scope-9521
$464.99 57360 Savage 110 Apex Predator XP 6.5mm Creedmoor 24" / Vortex Crossfire II 4-12x44mm (includes $75 rebate until Oct 15) https://www.smga.com/savage/110-apex...-w-vortex-5632
$419.99 18398 Savage 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor 26" https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/sava...act&cm_soc=AFF
Whatever direction I go I'm going to need a scope, bipod, cheekrest etc. in the end, so I'd really appreciate your thoughts on whether the XP scopes are worth considering while I'm still learning, or if I should just plan to replace them immediately. Same for AccuStock - is it worth looking for initially?
So over to you: What do you think?
Ross.
IMO you should stay away from the Axis line and just go with the 12FV in 6.5 Creedmoor. Already has the heavy contour 26" barrel, and the aftermarket options will be greater. You'll probably want to swap out the stock quickly, but the rest should be ok while you're learning. For Optics, you're going to want an optic that you can dial elevation and windage.
Right now I like the Element line of optics for a low to mid tier price. https://element-optics.com/
Good luck to you,
well savage makes great rifles for the money but you are dreaming if you think you are going to me COMPETITIVE at 1000 yards with a $500 off the shelf rifle.
first define your type of competition..specifics. f class, bench rest ?? what ?
(your budget maker is in a dream world, not the real world)
savage top end rifles $1200-1600 will do the job....then add scope and other equipment.
quick break down of a 600/1000 yard br rifle : bbl 350( blank) chambered $125-150, stock 500-1000( mine was 770)
action 1000 to 1500 mine was 1400, trigger 200-500 base 100 rings 100, scope 1500-3500 mine was 2600 fitting and bedding( called a stocker) 500 or more.
over $4000 for a custom
Depending upon exactly what you want to do, a Savage Model 12 LRP in 6.5CM may be a good start - https://www.savagearms.com/content?p...ummary&s=19136
Not cheap, but should get you started. Comes with a HS Precision aluminum bedded stock that's a big step-up from a standard hunting stock, but not quite a chassis. Also includes other features that you would want. Pretty sure it's going to be in the $1000 range, but given the features I don't think that's bad at all.
Maybe someone that shoots one will chime-in and give a review.
Forget the Axis line even exists...very little to no aftermarket support on it. Get a 12FV and an Oryx chassis and call it a day. If you just want to shoot long range it can easily be as accurate as a full custom build, but the action is not the best for something like PRS where you are really working it hard and fast.
Two (three inc. Mike) people saying stay away from the Axis, and two votes for the 12 FV already. Cool. Comparing that to the Apex Pred, which has the better action and barrel? Asking just because there's a $75 rebate on 110's at the moment.
Mike, I don't think I'm going to be ready to look at F class for a while (trying to keep my all-in costs for this first rifle to below $750), but thanks for the info - if I get serious I know a bit more about what to be aiming for down the road! I'm not aware there even *is* a 1,000 yard range anywhere near me. I could be wrong (welcome correction!) but so far I've only found Port Malabar's 600 yard range to be the longest one within reasonable travelling distance (~2 hours).
And not sure about bench/prone yet. I think I'd prefer prone, but need to shoot a good number of rounds in both positions to see which I prefer.
Ross.
the action on the predator and the 12FV are going to be the same, but the barrel on the 12FV has an extra 2" (or 50fps roughly) Savage barrels are not "great barrels", but you do want a heavier contour for shooting 8-10 shot strings without getting it too hot and changes your POI too much.
I think you will be better served shooting from prone rather than a bench, but it is possible that the bench will work better....? I like shooting from prone whenever possible.
you need to define WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO, before buying ANYTHING.
"SHOOTING AT 600 YARDS" IS NOT COMPETING AT 600 YARDS.
define the task before spending money
i just sold a 10 something in 308 that would have worked well for f class at 600, not for br.
for 600 a 6br on the top end of savage would probably work but even then it breaks your budget.
bottom line your "plan" is much bigger than your budget
Originally Posted by RBT321
Cheers Mike. I can't justify spending the thousand's you're talking about without first spending a good deal of time learning and practising to see if this is a sport I want to get serious about - or not.
So perhaps I should reframe and limit my initial intentions a bit. I want an inexpensive rifle that I can train with. I need something that will help me learn the core techniques of long range shooting. I have zero expectations that this first rifle will win me any competitions, or even seriously 'compete' with the mid-field, but if I can turn up at my local range once a week, it needs to be good enough to help me learn shooting techniques.
I figure my first few trips to the range will just be pure familiarization. And I'll need to spend quite a few months with this rifle, learning all I can, gradually improving my techniques before I make any decisions regarding stepping up to more serious competition equipment.
Surely something like a 12 FV with a reasonable scope (currently looking at the Athlon Optics Argos 6-24×50 FFP for just over $300) should get me hitting things at 600 yards regularly enough that I can focus my efforts on improving my groupings, practicing my breathing, timing shots with my heart rate, learning to read the wind in the grass etc?
Do you think that's a more reasonable way for someone to start out testing the waters to see if the temperatures are welcoming?
Ross.
Welcome to Savage rifles. I think I completely understand where you are coming from as I am just a few years past my first Savage. I ended up choosing the 12 fv because it was on sale, could be upgraded with any of the savage model 10 upgrades, and was easy to work with. The stock is not their worst stock, but it’s not stiff. However, there are some very easy DIY projects you can complete on the stock with a few hours worth of work that makes it much better. Primarily, place a small steel rod in the fore end and fill the channel with epoxy. And bedding the recoil lug and/or action helps.
The 12fv is a great rifle to start with, and you can pick up upgrades from the classified adds as you find them. Before you spend a lot on upgrades, don’t be afraid to experiment on the factory/stock rifle as it will give you good experience and also help you narrow down where you want to spend your upgrade money.
I have learned that a good rifle with a great scope is money well spent.
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Two things are non-negotiable...
You need a heavy contour barrel for target shooting. A light contour barrel cannot shoot consistently with the rapid heat retention that is part and parcel of target shooting.
You can get "good enough" results with a relatively inexpensive rifle like the Savage 12FV (I would also suggest you take a long, hard look at the Ruger American).
Optics:
Can't speak to that particular Athlon, but I own an Ares BTR and am impressed with it. Vortex is another brand to look at- Midway has the Viper 6.5-20 on sale (I think they do special runs on this scope periodically) for $300. I own two of these, and are the best I've looked at for the $$ https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2420772363
Make sure you understand the trade-offs of an FFP optic- especially one as inexpensive as the one you listed. FFP optics are more expensive to manufacture than SFP- so, for the same $$, you're "giving up" quality elsewhere when compared to a SFP. BR, and F-Class shooters generally favor SFP as do I- because most of my shooting is at 400-1000 yards at known ranges.
Frank explains the considerations here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-lOZ4vxk0
You can get a factory rifle that'll shoot sub-minute for relatively little coin. Get the best optic you can afford- both for clarity (which really comes into play at long range), and accurate tracking- you won't regret it.
Given the list you presented and your stated budget, the 12FV is an easy choice. As others have already stated, you should seek a heavy barrel. This is a very capable rifle which you can easily customize and upgrade when you get hooked on your new hobby.
Your on the right path. Any gun that shoots a bullet within 2moa will bang steel along way out if you can see it and repeat it with the optics.
That Athlon is great and I like the reticle. “Christmas tree”
I shoot only vertical and horizontal marks in my scopes.
If the scope will zero at 100 and has a good reticle you can, should, and will learn to measure, hold, and shoot that reticle.
Cheers. Take good notes at the range and rock on.
Learn to know your scope. What all the graduations mean.
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How much rifle shooting experience do you have?
Do you have a quality .22 target rifle?
You may want to do some short to mid-range target work with a .22 rifle to build your skills before venturing out to long range CF shooting.
again///you have not defined what you want to do !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
there is a massive difference in:
banging steel
2moa mil
fclass
and
br.......
they ain't the same and have little in common including the rifle
Another vote for the 12 FV. Mine started as a .223, I recently re-barreled it in 6.5 Creedmoor, using a take off barrel from another 12 FV. First thing I did was replace the stock with a Boyd's Pro Varmint, I've used that same stock on several other guns, it just works for me. I pillared and glass bedded the action, then put a Sightron S-TAC 4-20x50 scope on it. As a .223 it was a consistent sub-MOA rifle, I've only got 40 rounds through it as a Creedmoor so far, but 4 of 5 different factory loads were also sub-MOA at 100 yards, I'm still waiting on reloading dies, but it's looking very promising. That said, I don't compete, just shoot for fun, and have yet to stretch it out past 300 yards, although I do have fantasies of reaching out to 1000 yards someday. But if you're looking for a trainer to learn the basics of long range shooting, you could do a lot worse. Good luck.
Dave
Before buying I would go to a local match. See the match director during a lull in the activity and tell him/her that you are interested in learning. The club may have a 'new shooter' plan that might include things like loaner rifles and such. See if you like that kind of shooting first. And if the range has multiple types of matches, then visit all of them. As Mike stated, BR, F class, and PRS are all different animals.
If you have never fired a rifle for score on a target then starting with a .22 is the best place to go. At a club that is probably where they would start you. Mainly so you can learn the art of shooting without having to deal with the recoil of a larger cartridge. But, also due to cost. Premium rifle ammunition for something like the 6.5CM is expensive, $30-50 per box, and you will go through several boxes in a match. Rimfire ammunition is terribly cheap by comparison and you still learn the same skills.
If you already shoot CF rifles then visiting the matches has a side benefit. You can frequently get a nice used rifle already set up for the type of shooting you want. That way you won't 'waste' money on a setup that might get replaced in a few years anyway.
Another vote for the 12FV. Other than mounting a scope (Viper HSLR 4-16x44) out of the box and with Hornady Pro Hunter ammo it printed 3/4" grps at 185yds. Watch Cabelas/BassPro for sale pricing, mine was $279.
Mike & Charlie, I really don't know which of the different areas will get my interest. I haven't got enough experience to answer that question yet. I've only seen a couple of events in person (mostly I've just seen videos) but each of them look interesting in different ways. I have very little real experience so far - may as well call it none - so right now I just want to try a bit of this, bit of that, essentially just dip my toe in, to see which I prefer.
More votes for the 12 FV, eh? It certainly seems to be the clear winner here. They've got a pretty good deal coming up for Black Friday at Cabela's/Bass Pro ($299 after rebates). Given the resounding support from you good folk here, I think I'm going to arrange for my local store to have one waiting for me on the day! Must remember to order ammo ahead of time too - reasonably priced 6.5CM is getting seriously rare!
Having said that, the .22 idea sounds like a really good one to get me started. I'll go down to my local range(s) and see if they have any opportunities to try some out, maybe they'll have a course or something, or some friendly regulars will take pity on a British cuzin'As there is only a month to that Black Friday deal though, I don't think buying a .22 now, only to sell it again in a few weeks, is going to be the best option for me - I may as well just go for it. In for a penny...
Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions and insights!
Ross.
Yep, I made the decision by not making one, I chose not to compete. Did it when younger and not interested in it now. I shoot how I like, when I like at whatever targets I like :) I also decided to go back to cast bullets in my .308. Fun stuff.
'In for a penny...' LOL the way many of us roll!
Let us know how you proceed and how things work out.
PS if you have a range close enough that does CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) events they frequently have club guns, usually .22s, for training.
Hands down 12FV. Good rifle from the start. Shoot the piss out of it, then you have a good action to re-barrel & mod to your heart’s content. Athlon are great scopes for the money. In fact, I’m still quite happily using my Athlon Midas BTR 4.5-27x50. Got it new for a ridiculous low price! I’m not a competitor. I shoot for fun. But I’m still fond of the best I can afford. I build ALL of my own firearms. The Savage model 10, 11, 12, etc., are great for DIY’ers...even beginners, for upgrading & modding as you can, on a budget. My model 10 for example, I purchased used. Stripped to bare Action & did a complete build. Stuck it in a chassis w/ the aforementioned scope. Of course it’s not the best rig out there...but it’s mine...built with my one hand! And it will do 1000yds with ease! Much further even. It’s MUCH more accurate than I am. So, could it be competitive if I wanted? Well, sure....at least to the level I myself could be.
As for everyone dogging on the axis heres my 6.5 creedmoor build. It can be done and the geometry of the action lends itself to accuracy. Recoil lug not so much, but it locks up good in this chassis so I just trued the action on the lathe , it was out about .5 mill, and didn’t cut it for a traditional lug. I started down the path after finding an axis lefty beater at a pawn shop For $150. Cobbled together parts from here and eBay. $500ish later Not including the glass. I’ve got a damn fine rifle. Should a newbie try it? Probably not, can it be done? Yes. Could I sell it for what I have in it? Not unless the buyer shot it.
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I’ve never seen that chassis and I’m in love. Dang..As for everyone dogging on the axis heres my 6.5 creedmoor build. It can be done and the geometry of the action lends itself to accuracy. Recoil lug not so much, but it locks up good in this chassis so I just trued the action on the lathe , it was out about .5 mill, and didn’t cut it for a traditional lug. I started down the path after finding an axis lefty beater at a pawn shop For $150. Cobbled together parts from here and eBay. $500ish later Not including the glass. I’ve got a damn fine rifle. Should a newbie try it? Probably not, can it be done? Yes. Could I sell it for what I have in it? Not unless the buyer shot it.
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I have to say, that's exactly the sort of "build project" that really appeals to me!As for everyone dogging on the axis heres my 6.5 creedmoor build. It can be done and the geometry of the action lends itself to accuracy. Recoil lug not so much, but it locks up good in this chassis so I just trued the action on the lathe , it was out about .5 mill, and didn’t cut it for a traditional lug. I started down the path after finding an axis lefty beater at a pawn shop For $150. Cobbled together parts from here and eBay. $500ish later Not including the glass. I’ve got a damn fine rifle. Should a newbie try it? Probably not, can it be done? Yes. Could I sell it for what I have in it? Not unless the buyer shot it.
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I'll probably get just as much satisfaction from doing that sort of custom job, as I will from firing it.
The Axis probably would be enough for me to learn the basics on, as I'm starting out. But given the strong recommendations on here and the fact that I'm looking at a fairly small all-in difference of about $130 between the Axis ($567) and the 12 FV ($698), I think it makes sense to go for the extra 4 inches and the heavier barrel. But I'm really liking what you did there - it gives me ideas :) Thanks for sharing!
Ross.
have you considered a used savage rifle?
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
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