Reply With QuoteDo you hand load? Odds are if you can get 1 moa that with some load dev you can get betterOriginally Posted by Mr.Snerdly
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I am a little disappointed with the accuracy of my 243 model 10. It is basically 7/8-1 MOA at best. Today I tried a 100 grain bullet again and it was horrible. Over 2 MOA and some were well over that. I had not had good luck with that weight before and blamed some of it on wind but today was almost perfect. I had some 80 grain and it shot much better but not what I would expect. I have had the best luck so far with 75 grain bullets, not a lot better than the 80 grain but I have shot enough with both that I am comfortable saying the 75 work better. Should I go lighter? They list 65 and 70 grain and even lighter but I think a 55 grain would be too light in that caliber. Keep going or sell it? It is shooting better than when I first started but is not where it should be.
Do you hand load? Odds are if you can get 1 moa that with some load dev you can get better
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Some barrels are hummers, some are bummers. I have had 3, 223 rem barrels. The most accurate was a sporter weight that I sold to fund something else. dumb me. The one I have now is a model 12 varmint weight that just wont shoot. You just have to sometimes give up and move on. Hand loading might help or Get a different barrel.
And some of them just take a few bricks of ammo before they settle in
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I had the same kind of problem with my 12BVSS, in .308 and still do kinda. It's the kind of rifle you'd think would do less than 1/2MOA all the time. But, it isn't. Keep in mind that Savage considers 1MOA their accuracy standard for most of their rifles but will accept 1.5MOA for the lighter barrels. Somewhere in their FAQ they have a list of factory ammo they use for testing.
When first purchased I was lucky to get 1MOA with any load. I even got some Federal Gold Medal Match and they were 1.5 MOA. Instead of sending it back to Savage I stubbornly kept at it. The barrel was a copper mine and did not shoot well if the barrel warmed up much (this is a heavy fluted barrel). I resorted to ussing so Isso paste in it. Learned about KG12 for dissolving copper. Developed some decent loads. Turned out that the rifle is very load sensitive, not at all like my .223 Axis that shoots just about any load under 1MOA and many at the 1/2MOA mark. After about 500rounds and several different bullet/powder combinations I found a couple that would work and get me near the 1/2MOA mark. Keep in mind that in this accuracy range my load was very picky, ie, a 1% change in the powder charge would really mess things up. And some bullet weights/types just would not work.
Along the way I also discovered that my shooting technique was partly to blame. I had shot the little .223 so much that I had gotten sloppy. I had to clean up my own act a bit as well. That was what finally got me from the 'just under MOA' to the 1/2MOA range and sometimes a bit less.
Depends on what your shooting at...
In my mind a 100 gr in a 243 is the last one I'd expect to get great performance.
Hunting wise I think you loose SOOO much speed and energy with a 100.
A lot of 243 barrels have the wrong twist to shoot a 100 gr.
Try a 95 at higher speeds.
I shoot a 6mm rem and for deer/ antelope/ and elk I use an 80 gr Barnes ttsx
3600 fps, out standing.
For Varmints I use a 55 gr Nosler at 4200 fps at 200 yards it shoots a cloverleaf group.
Just in my mind...
Whats the twist of the barrel?
Could be its too slow for 100 gr bullets to work and why lighter ones will work.
Remington introduced their 6 mm Rem about the same time as Win did the 243.
The 6 mm Rem was and still is a better cartridge than the 243, except most today never even heard of it.
But due to the slow twist barrel Remington chose to use it wouldnt shoot 100 gr bullets, and that caused the gun to be a failure.
ME?
I am aware of the twist issue in the 6mm rem.
We are talking a 243.I have 3 243's and none of which shoot a 100 gr as well as
an 95 or even a 85 gr bullet. If you feel you need a longer bullet in your twist then try a Barnes.
Check out the ballistic and energy of a slightly lighter bullet , WITH an open mind.
Try a fast fps lighter bullet I'll bet your groups improve a LOT.
I would try some IMR 4064 and a Sierra 85gr HP Game king. If that combo won't shoot then you have a problem.
I do handload. I guess I know what WON'T work. The 100 grain just is a waste of money. I have some loaded I haven't shot and I will pull the bullets and at least save the powder and primers. I have decided to try some lighter bullets rather than give up. It does seem as they get lighter it improves. It may go the other way if I go below the 75 grain too, only way to know is try. I am using Varget powder. That might not be the perfect powder but I got some because it will work pretty well in the 223 and 22-250. I am referring to velocity. I don't know if there is any way to tell as far as accuracy. Would 4064 be a better option? Is there any thought on powder charges with respect to minimum and maximum being better for accuracy? I am loading just a little above minimum since it seems the 243 brass is bad about the shoulder growing with a few firings. The 223 cases I use have been fired at least as often and it has hardly changed dimensions. If a higher charge would help I guess it would be worth resizing the whole case a little more often.
Another question, how important is the distance to the lands? I have tried .030 and .020. It seems like the .030 was just slightly better, which seems backwards. I have a hell of a lot to learn about all this and appreciate any advice.
My .243 is built around a Savage model 12 action and Benchmark barrel. Twist is 7.75 for the 105gr Berger bullet pushed by 4831sc @ 2960 fps. If I didnt have 8lbs of 4831, Id go with R16 which I use in two 6.5s.
So a lot of answers and not many questions, Id ask about brass, type of bullet, rifle model #, type of stock, yada yada, before Id give thought to seating depth or even group size for that matter. .243 should be very easy to get to shoot sub moa unless there is a problem unidentified so far. I have seen this type of problem from nothing more than action screws being loose, or even something loose in scope mounting. Ya never know, but more about your set up may help with an answer you can use.
It's just the cheapest Model 10 available I think, with the plastic stock. I have a torque screwdriver and the action torqued to specs. I also have the scope torqued to specs and rechecked both the scope torque and action screws before the last time I went out to shoot. It doesn't have an absolute elite scope but it does have a decent one, Vortex Viper that goes to 20 power. That is really more than it needs. I took it off the 22-250 thinking a better scope would help and it didn't. I also have the trigger lightened up as much as I could be comfortable with. It shot better after the trigger was lightened, or more correctly stated, I did a better job of shooting. I am not a perfect marksman by any means but most groups are pretty consistent which tells me it is the gun and not me and I have other rifles that shoot pretty decently, far better than this one. It is Winchester brass. I have used 3 bullets: 100 grain Speer Grand Slam, Sierra 80 grain SBT and the best shooting one was a Speer 75 grain hollow point. Half the price of the Sierra and it shot better. The 100 grain Speer was simply awful.
What are you shooting off of like sand bags a sturdy front rest with a good quality rear bag will help loads. I have seen time and time and again the tupperware stocks sometimes work ok but most do not. If you could see how much the barrel whips and your stock flexes not to mention the scope whipping upon ignition you would wonder if it was falling apart. Get a Boyds wood stock(Most are drop in but some need a bit of fitting) and bed the action to free float that barrl. I can almost gurantee better results. Secondly if you are using factory ammo you could go through 12 different types or better to find one that it likes. Rifles are like babies they eat what they like and the rest gets spit out so to speak. I had a 30-06 that hated factory and was a hammer with my handloads.
Willing to give back for what the sport has done for me!
You said you checked scope screws but did you check base screws as well? I can't tell you how many times rifles show up in the shop with claims of horrible accuracy with the scope bases rattled loose. The first thing I ever do with a new rifle is take the bases off and degrease everything and put it all back together with some blue lock tight.
Expectations are unrealistic for a mass-production factory rifle.
Minute of angle is completely acceptable. Often they'll do better, but when they do not- there's no justification for a *****fest.
Not long ago, a "minute of angle guarantee" was a huge deal for a factory rifle. Yet, unrealistic expectations are still alive and well.
Want a half-minute rifle? That's why people buy customs and/or rebarrel.
I did check the base screws. I don't put locktite on the scope rings though. It is easy to check them occasionally. I have never found any yet that have loosened but not saying it couldn't happen. The base I think it is a good idea to put loctite on them.
I finally found some Speer 75 grain bullets for sale and also I ordered some 58 grain. I didn't really want to go that light but the 65 grain that I wanted was not available for some reason. With the China virus I have no idea when it will get here. I ordered some stuff from the same place on 30 Mar and it isn't here yet. I haven't given up on the rifle yet but if this doesn't help I don't know what to do. Sometimes it is better to admit defeat rather than keep throwing money at it.
I would not give up, unless you just don't like doing the development. Sometimes a rifle likes a particular load and you just have to find it. Yep, it might be 'expensive' to get there.
You didn't say what kind of rest you are using. With the factory plastic stock the rest is important to keep the fore end from 'bouncing' or touching the barrel. You also cannot put any pressure on the fore end.
If I may ask how long is your barrel, what is the twist rate?
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I am using a cheap rest that supports the fore end and butt end. I think it is plenty good enough for what I am doing. I have run a dollar bill under the barrel while it is in the rest and it seems to clear but I think I will take it apart and relieve the stock a little more to be on the safe side. I don't touch the fore end of the rifle when I shoot. I have not verified the twist rate but I thought all 243 Savage rifles were 1 in 9.25" unless it there is a serial # break that is different. The rifle is about 8-10 years old, serial # G582089 and was shot very little until recently. Barrel is 22" and is the thin barrel. I am pretty sure this is the cheapest Model 10 they made when I got it.
The thing that gives me hope is that the accuracy gets better as the bullets get lighter. There is a HUGE difference between the 100 grain and the 80 and there is a definite, measurable difference between the 80 and 75. It might do very well with the 70 or 58. I hope it doesn't take forever to get the bullets here. I might even get some 4064 powder as someone suggested. I would be happy if I could get 3/4 MOA pretty consistently and hopefully 5/8 a reasonable amount of the time. I think that is about all you could expect from it. I know I could be off that much in my shooting technique but I also don't think I am terrible either.
Savage model 10s in 243 are 1:9.25 twist. Not fast enough for the heavy loads. I don’t believe the 243 Savage 10s were ever really known to be Tac drivers. I think just Sub to MOA is about what to expect.
Get a faster barrel & load worked up, and it will likely deliver drastically better groups.
I finally tracked down some 65 grain bullets. Stuff is really hard to get now. Turned out to be less money than my online sources for both bullets and powder. The 65 grain were no better than the 75 grain but they were no worse either. I think about 3/4 MOA-1 MOA is about it, which isn't terribly bad but it seems everyone on the internet can take a $300 rifle they got on sale for $239.99 and shoot 1/2" groups "with the right factory ammo". Has not been my experience but these aren't terrible either.
I've been experimenting with hard cast in my 308 and creedmoor, my friend makes them and I only used about 10 in the shilen and 10 in the criterion but I have to say, I was AMAZED at the consistency and accuracy of plain old hard cast lead
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He has always bragged to me that they were more accurate than match grade bullets.. i gotta say from what I saw, I can no longer dismiss what he said
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