Reply With QuoteOK, lets simplify it. Savage #19137, is there any current/recent, manufacturing issues/defects, w/ it?
In other words, any problems, or anything to watch out for if one were to go buy a new one anytime soon?
Hello, I'm hoping to learn what about the rifle determines it to be a 10, or a 12. I also want to know all the differences b/t them. I asked savage, but they didnt sound to sure. One of the times, and one of the more sensible sounding answers i got was, that the bolt was trued to the barrel on the 12's, but not the 10. Then i heard, that don't matter, because the bolt floats in both models.
I'm not sure, fully understand what that means anyway, so, I'm hoping to start from square 1, w/ you guys, and find out. I'm thinking this is got to be the best place to learn. thanks
OK, lets simplify it. Savage #19137, is there any current/recent, manufacturing issues/defects, w/ it?
In other words, any problems, or anything to watch out for if one were to go buy a new one anytime soon?
Why, thank you, "wbm" for the link. The #3 post in that link, links to quite a long thread.
I'm figuring on getting this rifle in link. I read another thread here, where someone who has this rifle, and the axis, said they shoot about the same accuracy (which surprised me). Theres quite a diff in price of the two. Any thoughts on that? Also, any known problems in the current production of this rifle in the link? One other question, on my mind, which savage rifle would be the next step up in accuracy than the one in link?
https://www.savagearms.com/content?p...ummary&s=19137
I'm finding this amazing. Over 200+ views, and one reply. Thats less than half of 1% of reply.
If, I didnt know beter, I'd think, this was a message/chat forum for the "blind, deaf, and mute."
I haven’t responded because I am generally lazy and am not going to lookup the link you referred to multiple times. The Axis rifles will shoot quite well but I prefer the 110 ‘s platform over the Axis. Vendors offer a better selection of upgrades for the 110 and it is what I started out with.
Not sure what to make if your last post but as this forum may cater to the blind, deaf and mute I see little point in posting any further responses to this thread.
I will make it simple. The actions are 100% the same. The changes are barrel diameter / length and stocks. The blind may have a problem with the research, but smartass can read and do there own.
.223 Rem AI, .22-250 AI, .220 Swift AI .243 Win AI, .6mm Rem AI, .257 Rob AI, .25-06 AI, 6.5x300wsm .30-06 AI, .270 STW, 7mm STW, 28 nosler, .416 Taylor
there are 10s and 12s, that share the same barrel dia, stock, barrel length (easy to see). so, are you the blind or smartass?
The difference is 2.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
I think you might be looking for some feedback from members who have multiple Savages and can help with comparisons based upon personal experience.
I own multiple model 10s and model 12s.
The 12 LRP in your link to the Savage web-site has a Precision Target Accu-trigger, with the red blade, that can be adjusted to 6 oz. That particular model also has a Precision Target Trigger warning printed on the limited access receiver. Most model 12s and Model 10s have receivers with more open access receivers. My 12 LRP Precision Target Accu-trigger came from the factory set at 10 oz.
The 12 LRP model has a HS-Precision high comb stock with a detachable Savage magazine. You pay more for the stock and the Precision Target Trigger and the re-enforced receiver. Many model 12s come with laminated stocks.
The very popular 12 FVs made especially for Cabela's have a regular factory stock with no aluminum backbone and a hidden magazine. I have two of them.
Most of the model 12s have Varmint/Target Accu-triggers. A few, the more expensive models, have Precision Target Accu-triggers.
The 26-inch barrel on the 12 LRP is the same as the barrel in the 12 FV that is a bargain rifle with a cheap factory stock and hidden magazine (without expensive bottom metal and detachable magazine). My model 12s, even the two bargain 12 FVs are my most accurate Savages.
My model 10s are law enforcement models. Those manufactured after 2010 have Accu-stocks with a lower bolt release and detachable magazines. My original 10 FP (2008) has a hidden magazine and no bottom metal. All of my model 10s are .308s and have 24-inch barrels.
My model 10s have varmint/target Accu-triggers than can be adjusted down to 1 lb. 6 oz. Most of mine came from the factory set at 2 lbs plus.
All their triggers are very comfortable and accurate set at 2 lbs.
In my experience, the varmint triggers tend to lock up easily if they are set close to 1 lb. 6 oz.
I also have a Model 11 in .22-250, that I bought on a clearance-out sale, came with an Accu-stock and a Varmint/Target Accu-trigger but it has a cheaper plastic magazine with the mag release built into the mag. That is a weak point IMO. I believe the Axis uses the same magazine.
My model 10s shoot very accurately but the model 12s shoot slightly more accurately, but the model 12s are in 6.5mm CM and .223 calibers and the smaller calibers tend to be more accurate ( I believe the lighter recoil has an effect on the long term average accuracy).
My model 10s in .308 have long term average accuracy of under 4.5 inches with 5 round groups at 100 yards while the Model 12s average the around 3.5 inches for the 6.5mms and just at 0.3 inches for the .223.
My 12 LRP in 6.5mm CM is very slightly more accurate than my 12 FV (after it was restocked with an Oryx chassis to eliminate some flexing in the factory stock).
My model 11s long-term 5-round average is just under 4.0 inches.
I believe that the accuracy of the Savage rifles come from their barrels and their actions. The choice of different stocks, triggers, and other options have an impact in giving the shooter the chance to get consistent set up that fits his or her preferences to eliminate 'shooter induced variations'.
It is possible that a particular shooter can get a low cost Savage rifle to shoot very accuately out of the box, especially if the shooter is not too tall of too short and tends to adapt easily to the rifle's dimensions.
My bargain 12 FVs were among my most accurate and consistent rifles right out of their boxes.
Their accuracy improved further when I changed the cheap factroy stocks to Oryx chassis but they were very accurate out of the box.
My Model 10s were accurate out of the box and have continued to be through over 4,000 rounds through their barrels.
My 12 LRP was accurate out of the box without any modifications. The 12 LRP's Precision Target Accu-trigger and HS-Precision stock was well worth the extra money IMO.
The cheap Model 11 package shot accurately out of the box (OK, it came with a scope that I changed to a target scope before I put the first round down range but the rest of the rifle is as it came out of the box.)
Why thank you very much for your detailed article. This helps me. Until, I made this thread, I thought there was more of a criteria, that distigueshed b/t a 10 and 12, but it appears to me you can about treat them both about the same, and lean to what there equipped w/ in acct more than anything else. I do have a question/concern or two, about what you said. I mean, how could anyone not, you covered alot. The part that you said about the 12fv shooting so accurately, blows me away, and seems everyone else agrees from my readings. So no doubt there, thats amazing a 400 dollar rifle does that. But, in another thread, two guys said/agreed the 12lrp barrel had a 1" muzzle dia end, and the 12 fv, had a .83 muzzle end. But you mentioned the two had the same barrel though?
The other part I find surprising is that the 308, if I'm understanding the sentence correctly, is getting b/t 3.5 - 4.5 moa, which I thought would be much less.
I see the .223 gets .3 moa( thats great), but I got confused on what moa the 6.5 Creedmore got at 100 yds?
The other thing I'm not sure about is the extra reinforced receiver on the 6.5 LRP, and whether the "limited access receiver" is standard on the LRP . I did read somewhere where the opening was smaller on some rifles. Is that what you were referring to, as to reinforcing it more, or is thicker, or there something else that adds additional reinforcment? Lastly, how does 12FV receiver, differ from 12LRP (does the FV internal mag design, add more strength to bottom of receiver than LRPs detachable mag)?
The more I read about this 12FV, the more tempting it sounds for the price. If both barrels are the same, I think I'd rather have the not fluted one ( I think), which would be the 12FV. I would think the non fluted would be a tiny more rigid. I'm not worried about weight.
I've looked at those Oryx chasis, and it looks like something I can get used too over time I guess. i don't know if its true, but sounds like you you don't really benefit from bedding in them, you just bolt them up, and go. Again, thank you for your time/effort on this CF Junkie
I never measured the two different barrel diameters so the LRP barrel might be slightly larger in diameter but the 26-inch barrel lengths are the same length. The two 6.5mm CMs, 12 LRP and 12 FV, shoot almost identically, now that the 12 FV has an Oryx stock.
The 12 LRP and 12 FV 6.5mm CMs prefer the same bullets and powders. My third Savage 6.5mm CM with a 24-inch barrel prefers different weight bullets and shoots slightly less accurately.
The 12 LRP has a slightly better average for the best shooting bullets and powders, but its overall average is almost identical to the 12 FV because it was my first 6.5mm CM and I tested all kinds of bullets and loads to find its preferences. That increased the overall average a bit. When I compare accuracy with the best shooting bullets and powders, the 12 LRP has a slight edge.
Sorry, the group averages for the .308s and 6.5mm CMs were typos or just brain farts on my part.
Average group sizes were 0.45 for the .308s and 0.35 inches for the 6.5mm CMs.
The load averages for the top 25 loads are about 0.1 smaller for all of the rifles.
The LRP has the left side of the receiver solid at the top of the ejection area. Most of the Savages have the ejection area open on both sides.
The 12 FV has a flush base where the detachable magazine would normally go.
The magazine is inside the stock. You load it from the ejection port.
The reason I changed the .223 to the Oryx chassis was that when loading my 69 and 77 grain bullets out to get close to the rifling, loading from the ejection port was more difficult with the really long O.A.L. rounds. I got a detachable magazine that allows O.A.L. of 2.500 so I have no problem with seating depths that are way out there.
I changed the 12 FV 6.5mm CM to the Oryx chassis because I could feel the stock flex when I shot the 6.5mm CM rounds. I don't use hot loads and i still could feel the stock flexing. When I shot the Oryx in the .223, I made the change to the Oryx on the 6.5mm CM to get a stiffer stock. The AICS 6.5mm CM mag allows me to load out to 2.900 O.A.L. so most of my loads fit the mag. When they don't, the AICS mag allows me to use the mag as a single round follower so I can still shoot the really long bullets that are loaded way out.
Accu-stocks and the HS Precision stock on the 12 LRP have an aluminum integral stock stiffener. The factory stock on the 12 FV has no stiffener. Both 12 FVs still shot well out of the box but the Oryx stock improved the group size average by about 7-10% on both calibers.
The action screws are torqued to 60 in.-lbs. on the Oryx stock. The barrels are free floating all the way back to the locking lug. The chassis is aluminum and the action doesn't need bedding. I got great results with the 60 in.-lbs. torque setting and found no need to mess with it any further.
The action screws on the factory stock that came with the 12 FV torque at 35 in.-lbs. or less and the action is very sensitive to torque settings.
If you look at my posts when shooting the 6.5mm CM, you will see the increase in group sizes when I changed the torque on the action screws to 45 in.-lbs.
Be careful you don't over analyze the theoretical minutia and forget about the larger variations that are part of every individual firearm.
I find that individual barrels have their own characteristics - preferences for heavy or light bullets, for instance - that dictate their overall accuracy. The individual rifle variations make more of an impact on your effective accuracy than the the amount of stock material in the magazine area or the fluting of a barrel.
Based upon my experience, there is little difference in the rigidity of a fluted or non-fluted barrel. I have fluted barrels on two of my .308 and they shoot better than the non-fluted barrel on the third .308.
The fluting doesn't seem to make any difference other than perhaps aiding cooling very slightly.
Also the bottom metal on a detachable magazine rifle is more sturdy and acts more like a strengthener than the synthetic stock material on the 12 FV without any aluminum strengthener.
Also, the solid left side of the 12 LRP receiver stiffens the receiver more than the open receiver on most rifles.
How much difference that stiffness actually makes relative to accuracy is debatable, because the 12 FV shoots almost as well as the 12 LRP for about $700 less out of the box and $300 less when you add the Oryx stock.
All that considered, I would buy another 12 LRP tomorrow and also buy a 12 FV again too.
In fact, I may be buying another 12 LRP soon because mine has 4,200 rounds down range and the 12 FV has 2,750 rounds down range.
For 6.5mm CMs, the barrels are supposed to be at or near the end of their life expectancy.
Mine are shooting just as good today as they did when I first opened their boxes and I hope to get a bit more use out of them before I have to replace them.
Thanks you for the nice detailed explanations. I'm sorta leaning towards the FV purchase(s) by the way your talking. So, Is your savage .223 a 12FV also? If so, correct me if I'm wrong, that only comes in a 9 twist. Do those 69 and 77 gr. bullets do as good as 55gr in that 9 twist?
At the FV price I'm thinking of getting the 6.5 and 223 at same time w/ one dros fee. We got plenty of 223 ,cheaper to shoot, and we only have semi autos in 223, so a bolt 223 was on the list to get later anyway. Again, thanks for your help CF Junkie
Please do not get a .223 because you have a bunch of cheap ammo. The gun won't shoot well with it in most cases. 2MOA and sometimes 3MOA would be fairly common for that stuff. 1MOA and below you will need higher quality ammo. To get to .5MOA and better, 1) you need good reloads with premium bullets or premium ammo (eg, Federal Gold Medal Match might do it) 2) the rifle needs to be one of the better ones (yes, each one off the assy line is different) 3) YOU need to be able to shoot that well. If you are used to AR's and blasting at soda cans or deer hunting accuracy, you will need to step up your game.
And, yes, the 1:9 twist will shoot 77gn Sierra Match Kings just fine. I use them all the time in my Axis with a 22" barrel. And, yes, my cheap Axis with a Boyd's stock will shoot 1/2MOA IF I do my part. It did take around 400rounds to settle down to that kind of ability.
PS yes, there will be some people who say they can get tiny groups with cheap ammo/bullets. It is not the norm.
ok, thanks for the info, Charlie
An important consideration concerning accuracy is that the model 12's come in two flavors. The lower grade is a small shank action with open top and is comparable dimensionally to the model 10. Available in right and left bolt, it can be the basis of a fairly accurate build, or shoot well right out of the box. The 12FV is a favorite for low cost, excellent accuracy in stock form and easily upgradable with aftermarket barrels and stocks for extreme accuracy. The 12FV's typically come with a varmint accutrigger adjustable down to 1.5 lbs. The model 10's have the standard accutrigger adjustable down to 2.5 lbs as I recall. Both can be modified to break at lower weights.
The model 12 target is a large shank action, small port that's available in right port, right bolt, right eject or left port, right bolt, right eject. I'm not sure if it's available in a left bolt also, but both actions by themselves are available at Northland shooter supply should you desire to build a custom rifle.
Banning a gun will not solve what is a mental health crisis inflamed by incendiary rhetoric on social and television media. The first amendment in this case is less precious and more likely the causal factor than the second amendment.
ice tea,
I have two 1:9 twist .223s, the 12 FV Savage and an old CZ 527.
Both shoot 77 grain SMK and TMK bullets as accurately as the 69s.
Both the 77gr and 69 grain match bullets out shoot all the 55 grain bullets I've tried although Berger 55g # 22410s are the only 55s that come close to shooting as accurately.
Model 10 Law Enforcement and Varmint models have the accu-triggers that adjust down to 1.5 lbs. The normal hunting models don't. That is why the 12 FV has a Varmint trigger that goes down to 1.5 lbs.
Surprisingly
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