Reply With QuoteQuite a job! Sounds like it is well done and should shoot very well. One heck of a recycling job too!
So I had a thought and wanted to try it. So until my new s.s. barrel is done for this build (have it posted in the members build section also but not this part) I took the old 223 Rem. barrel that was on my sons 112V J series that I rebuilt with a new barrel and I had this one laying around. I took the old 223 barrel and rebored, reamed, prelapped, rifled and finished lapped the barrel to 6.5mm to see how it would turn out and how it would shoot. Reboring and rifling the barrel turned out like a million bucks. I set it up and rechambered the barrel to 6.5CM (Bartlein Match reamer...I modified the throat dimensions of the chamber). I then took the original 26" finish length of the barrel and cut 3" off and recrowned the muzzle and did it with an 11 degree target crown. I put the barrel back on today. The barrel was rifled with 5R rifling and is a 1-8 twist.
Before anyone freaks out on me by reboring the old barrel. It was heavily shot and the bore was pitted as well. So the bore was basically junk. When I first took the bore to .228" diameter (.004" bigger than the original groove size) there where still pits thru out the bore. So some of the pitting went at least .010" deep. It wasn't until I hit 6mm bore size that it cleaned up all the way.
Next thing I have to do is to inlet the magazine well a little deeper. The stock is a NOS 110S silhouette left hand stock and has never been used. The magazine box is bottoming out in the front of the mag well area.
I'll get some ammo loaded up as well as running some box ammo thru it and I should shoot it some this coming weekend. I'm going to shoot the rifle with out bedding the stock right now. I'll know either way if it's going to shoot. I'll keep ya posted.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Quite a job! Sounds like it is well done and should shoot very well. One heck of a recycling job too!
Before anyone gets any ideas about asking me to rebore and rifle they’re old barrel. Not going to happen. For one the amount of time it took me to rebore and rifle the barrel was as much time as making a new one from scratch if not a little more. So your not saving any time per say so no cost savings. Also if this barrel would have a bad bow to it (our terminology for being bent) I wouldn’t have even done it. If it would have had a bad bow to it the tooling is just going to follow the existing hole. You are not going to straighten the bore out. Also you risk damaging the breech threads (if that happens your trying to fix it and or it’s junk then) and we don’t know the quality of the steel per say. If the steel has any hard or soft spots in it we risk losing/scrapping the tooling. The rifling tooling alone we have a value of about $3500 on each one.
When I pulled the first tool/reamer thru it to take the bore to .228”. If there would’ve been any hint of any problems I wouldn’t have gone any further. Not to mention losing the reamer.
So again why did I do it? For one not wanting to wait for my new barrel to come thru like I said. Also it was more out of curiosity to see how it would turn out and what I can learn from it. Other than the shop doing the rifling on shop time I did everything else on my own time after hours.
I was super impressed how the steel machined. From reaming to rifling, lapping and chambering. The stuff machined like butter. No chatter, no bucking no nothing. I also did a Rc test on the steel from the 3” cut off from the muzzle end. It was 34 on the Rockwell scale. I’ve seen factory barrels (not necessarily Savage) as soft as 21Rc. The 34 is at the upper end of what you normally see.
When I rechambered the barrel to 6.5CM I did recut the breech face to clean it up. The factory finish was pretty rough but the face of the barrel doesn’t do anything per say but it does look nicer. I also refaced the breech end so I could set the headspace and time the barrel up properly so the factory lettering would show. Yes I do and will redo the caliber from 223 Rem and will change it to 6.5CM if it shoots....which I don’t know why it shouldn’t. Curious to see how to fouls, cleans, breaks in etc...
Later for now.
So would an old barrel be like an old engine block...where its worked out all its stress and make a better foundation for a new beginning?
That’s a interesting thought isn’t it? It’s one that I have thought of. I was taught though for a barrel to stress relieve itself it would take a silly amount of time. Like a hundred years. I cannot prove that at all and wouldn’t even know how. Also that is one thing that I always say.....stress/residual stress in the barrel blank cannot be measured at all to my knowledge.Originally Posted by celltech
I know where your coming from on the engine block thing as well as I’ve heard of different methods of helping relieve the stress in a engine block or if you want call it a seasoned block.
Off hand I’m going to say no. I’ve seen button rifled barrels where the shooter got it so hot during shooting that the bore actually changed/went sour. It opened up. This is from how hot they got it during shooting and the amount of stress that was in the blank. When this happens there is no fixing it.
For me this is a interesting test. Button rifling work hardens the bore which usually works against you from a barrel life perspective among other things. One question is did I machine out enough of the material that was work hardened from previously being made? I was also interested in how it would machine and also how it turned out dimensionally wise in the bore and groove when we measured it. Right now the bore is at .2562” uniformly over the whole length and the rifling of the grooves after it was all done is at .2641” at the breech with a slight choke in it measuring .2640” at the muzzle.
Will be interesting to see how it shoots.
It will shoot great I bet. Nearly everyone who gets a JES rebore just raves about it. I have a sneaking suspicion you also know what you’re doing. Man I’d like to see the equipment you guys do that work with. Fascinating stuff to me.
Thanks for explaining the process, and including the “dollars and sense” part of the equation.
I have a question, why didnt you post the second post first? Lol
Just had a conversation with a friend last week about reboring some old barrels and he said it isn’t worth it.
But, Ive read on a few sites where people do it and it works well for them.
50 years ago it was a pretty common thing especially with long barrels.
A guy by name of Vanpatten as i recall did quite a few for the hunters in my area.
So were you familiar with Howard Wolfe? and i assume you know Bruce Baer?
If so tell him you talked with the old guy who taught him every thing he knows about shooting. Lol
Actually his old ex buddys Wayne and Joel might claim some credit for that also.
And that freaking gun still wont go off even when i use both hands, unless i pour lighter fluid on the lousy Jewel trigger. Lol
Anytime your in the area and want to stop in at the shop just give me a heads up and your always welcome to stop in!It will shoot great I bet. Nearly everyone who gets a JES rebore just raves about it. I have a sneaking suspicion you also know what you’re doing
Thanks for explaining the process, and including the “dollars and sense” part of the equation.
The process for us normally making a barrel from scratch....goes like this...the bar stock gets cut to blank length. Normally the bars start out at 12’ to 16’ long. Gun barrel material and we get buy directly from the mill. After it’s sawed to blank length it gets gun drilled. Sometimes the blank is rough turned and sometimes not. After drilling it then gets finished turned. After turning then it gets bore reamed. The over for prelapping/honing. Then over to rifling. Cut rifling the barrel usually takes us about 1.5 to 2 hours per barrel. After rifling then it gets finished lapped and all the information stamped on the breech face and then shipped out to the customer. On a normal barrel blank usually total production time is 3 to 3.5 hours. There are some minor processes that I skipped.
I also get asked my opinion on setting a barrel back if it’s worth it or not. I say no. Even if you cut off the threads (about 1” of the breech end per say) and you rethread and rechamber the barrel what guys don’t understand the wear is as much as 8” up from the breech end. Yes you will get some more life/use out of the barrel but at best maybe 50%. If you have to pay a gunsmith say $300 or so to set it back and rechamber and while your at it you should recrown the muzzle as well it’s not worth it. Also sometimes it’s more work to set it back then to just fit up a new barrel.
Haven’t talked to Bruce in a long time.
Why didn’t I post the second post first? Didn’t think about it at the time. Came to me a little later and figured I’d better make the comment before I started getting hit up on it. LOL!
We have made liners for guys that are restoring rifles and want to keep all the original engraving on the original barrel but want the rifle back in operation and shooting well again. That can be a lot of work but usually when a guy is restoring a gun like that per say...it’s worth some money!
You should offer it as a service. Looks real nice and nobody will realize it was redone by you at Bartlein. What a great idea.
Willing to give back for what the sport has done for me!
Then I have a few questions for you and again it’s a dilemma for me.
1. If the barrel that is sent in and the material ends up being bad per say and it wrecks the tooling....how does that cost get covered? You might not find any problems until it starts going thru the shop. It could drill/bore ream up just fine but totally beats up the rifling tooling. You might discover a issue early on or you might not find a problem until your towards the end of remaking the barrel.
2. If we wreck/damage the customers old barrel who covers that costs? I’ll guarantee it’s gonna happen somewhere sometime? Or we put a scratch in the outside of the barrel etc....the customer isn’t going to be happy.
Now throw in the material is bad and it wrecks/damages tooling and for example lets say a bore reamer breaking which is about $200, honing tooling is a few grand by itself, rifling head tooling is another few grand. Or even if during rechambering you break a chamber reamer which is about $175? Not to mention again losing/scrapping the customers barrel.
3. If the barrel makes it through rifling no problems do we....
A. Only let the customer or the customers gunsmith only rechamber the barrel?
B. Do we offer the service of rechambering the barrel as well?
Who accepts the risk/cost if the chamber work goes bad? Either damaging the barrel or lets say the chamber doesn’t come out properly?
In the past we’ve accepted jobs where the customer supplied material and or had requests to machine special material. We’ve seen our share of bad material. One time we rejected a whole lot of material and returned it to the mill. It costs us $55k in lost labor in one month. Never got the labor covered by the mill like they promised they would and had to fight them just to get the lot of material replaced. Needless to say we don’t do any business with that mill anymore.
I’m kind of open to the idea but have to figure out what is acceptable to us as well as the customer.
Right now we are doing R&D work for a gov’t manufacturer on non standard material. I give them a cost/quote to do the work but we have an agreement in writing that if we lose/wreck any tooling they have to cover that costs. The average guy won’t be able to or will want be on the hook for anything.
The risks just seem to out weigh any benefits.
If you have any suggestions/thoughts I’m open to hearing them.
What a fun project!
I am still waiting to see what you decided to do with the new barrel at the nut/ no nut area . It will be interesting for sure.
Thank you Frank for sharing with us.
Merry Christmas
Jack
Your welcome Jack and Merry Christmas!
The new/primary barrel I think you will find it to be pretty cool when it’s done.
I also still need to double pin the recoil lug to the receiver as well as pillar bed the stock but for now I’m gonna give the current set up a whirl hopefully this weekend.
Later, Frank
I’ve never visited WI...maybe a good reason to. My wife’s Grandmother’s people are from the Veroqua area. She’s also a square head
3.5 hrs per barrel? Would never have guessed. Hope you guys are doing a serious amount of volume, or like living on food stamps, hahahahaha. Got to have a ton of $$$$$$$ invested in equipment.
Thanks again for the insight on the process. A lot goes into quality. I’ve been thinking a lot about a cut rifled barrel for my next project.
The only downside to cut rifling is the time it takes to do but all the advantages goes to cut rifling to making a better or should I say more consistent barrel from one to the next vs. button and hammer forged barrels.I’ve never visited WI...maybe a good reason to. My wife’s Grandmother’s people are from the Veroqua area. She’s also a square head
3.5 hrs per barrel? Would never have guessed. Hope you guys are doing a serious amount of volume, or like living on food stamps, hahahahaha. Got to have a ton of $$$$$$$ invested in equipment.
Thanks again for the insight on the process. A lot goes into quality. I’ve been thinking a lot about a cut rifled barrel for my next project.
We don’t induce any stress into the barrel blank like button and hammer forged do. Also uniformity of twist and the consistency on bore and groove size from one barrel to the next in a cut barrel there is no comparison as well. During button rifling if the button hits a hard/soft spot in the steel it typically will slow the button down. What you can end up with is a non uniform twist and or a twist that keeps getting slower towards the muzzle. To me this is the biggest reason why button barrels are more temperamental to the bullet/types of bullets or ammo it will like to shoot. Also bore and groove size uniformity is a big one. Button rifling induces a lot of stress into the blank and work hardens the bore. Even though a good button maker (there are ones that do not) stress relieve the blank after it is button rifled. What no barrel maker can measure for is residual stress. When they contour the barrel after button rifling if they hit a residual stress point during the contouring operation it will relieve itself and the bore typically opens up/goes sour and the last place you want it to go sour is at the muzzle. This is the last place the bullet touches when it leaves the barrel. This can easily effect accuracy in a negative way. When the bore opens up you cannot make it go back!
Work hardening of the bore....works against you barrel life wise. Single point cut rifling we physically cut/remove the material from the grooves. Approx. .0001” or less per pass in one groove at a time. Button rifling doesn't remove the material it displaces the material. It's basically a cold swaging process. The less barrel life in a button barrel isn’t just me claiming it either. Data I’ve gotten back from bullet and ammo makers, ammunition testers confirm that as well. Usually at a minimum the cut barrels go 15% longer barrel life wise.
Veroqua, WI isn’t that too far from us! Square heads! That was a good one.
Later, Frank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KwDcP-_WSw
The video link above is about Bergara barrels. Those are button rifled. Glad I had nothing to do with making the video. Watch the video from the 6 minute mark to 7 minute mark. That is a combination button that is being pulled thru the barrel.
At about the 6:40 mark on the video you can see how much the face of the barrel blank deformed from the button being pulled in. Again button rifling doesn't remove the material it displaces it. Also they mentioned that the internal smoothness/micro finish is I think they said 2 or so just before the 6 minute mark so you might have to back up the video a little. You can see how rough the bore finish is in that blank. There is no way that is a finish of 2 micro finish.
Last video below....is about threading muzzles. The point of the video is to cut your threads as large as possible to help the bore resist going sour and not necessarily hack on this or that barrel maker. The last two barrels are our barrels and the muzzles didn't go sour. Yes you can argue he cut bigger threads on those vs. the other barrels which are all button but we've had to thread barrels for suppressor testing and those barrels started out a 2.280" diameter. We had to thread the muzzles with a 5/8 thread and we did it after rifling and didn't scrap a single barrel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUm_YXzJJOU
Oh we had nothing to do with making those videos! Before anyone suggests that!
So I had it put together enough to give it a test drive and put a zero on the scope today. Shot 16 rounds thru it. I'll say we have success. Took a few rounds to get it zeroed. Winds where 15-20mph running from left to right. Last target is shown. The far left round was my first round after sitting back down. Could've been me, could've been the wind....the up and down most likely is because the stock isn't bedded. Just shot box Hornady ammo. Take the first round out and the group measures just a tick over .5". Target is at 117 yards. It's on the bench getting cleaned right now. Will see how it cleans and broke in per say. Scope is a Vortex Viper HS 4-16x. Fired brass didn't even have a .0005" of runout. So going from the 223 Rem. chamber and redoing it to 6.5CM I did something right in the set up!
Our 6.5CM match reamer with the box ammo the bullets are jumping .022".
Gotta bed the stock now after we double pin the recoil lug.
Later, Frank
Good job Frank!
It looks great.
A lot of work, but I know it is rewarding.
Jack
So years back say right after WW2, how were the good barrels like say those used on 52 Winchesters made?
And by people like Harry Pope who was well known as a barrel maker?
Was the machinery available to do cut rifling at that time?
And finally, since most factory rifles today are more accurate when purchased than years ago, is it due to better made barrels due to better machinery, Or a combination of things including ammo?
I frankly don’t think man is any smarter or better today, but we certainly have the techknowledgy to help make it look that way.
Single point cut rifling is the oldest method still being used today to make gun barrels. Don’t confuse single point cut rifling and broach cutting. Similar but different.
Pope’s barrels where all cut rifled. His original machines where all manual machines. He physically pulled the cutter thru the bore of the barrel by hand. Just like Schoyen and others of the time.
Win.52 barrels where cut rifled as where some and all of the preWW2 1903 barrels, 1917 Enfield barrels etc....button rifling came about during WW2 for the most part. Germans started it around 1925ish time frame if I remember correctly.
No new machines where built till we built brand new CNC machines. The last single point cut rifling machines built would’ve been the Pratt and Whitney hydraulic rifling machines and I think the last ones where WW2 or maybe till about 1952. Tooling still plays a part but we took all of the short comings out of the P&W machines. Even the Pratt’s though will make a consistently better barrel than a button barrel. Our machines and again tooling plays a part we’ve made 2 groove, 3 groove, 4 groove, 5 groove, 5R, 6, 8, 10 and 12 groove barrels. The machines are capable up to 24 grooves if memory serves me right. Twist....we can do gain twist and straight twist. Left hand twist or right hand twist. We’ve done gain twist barrels that have started out at 0 twist. Straight twist barrels we’ve made barrels with a twist rate as fast as 1-1.5! Actually we tried making 1-1 twist but tooling limited us as we where wiping out half the land width but the barrel still turned out.
Rifles now a days or should I say barrels made now a days are not necessarily any better than days gone by. I just recently sold a Ballard Rigby 4th variation that was converted by Pope around 1905 to 22RF. That rifle would shoot groups in the .3xx’s at 65 yards. I’ve had or had plenty of old rilfles WW2 vintage time frame or older that will shoot as good or better than stuff made now a days. I’d say ammo and bullets have made leaps and bounds. Box ammo especially with in the last 15 years or so. Still plenty of crappy ammo out there. The old saying is you get what you pay for but if you want the best accuracy your still handloading. To me that hasn’t changed.
For years cut rifling kinda died after WW2. You had a couple of guys/shops here or there that still did it but not in any real qty. I’d say Obermeyer and then Krieger really put cut rifling back on the map. Even when I started at Krieger there was a belief that button barrels where better and a cut rifled barrel would never compete with a button barrel on a bench gun. That was totally false/inaccurate statement. The biggest problem with say Obermeyer or anyone else till Krieger no one made slow twist 6mm benchrest barrels. Now a days...you look at almost any equipment list in short range BR and it’s Bartlein and Krieger on top. Maybe you will see a Shilen or a Hart in the top 25 and if you do it’s a couple here or there at a big match.
Overall from making barrels to making ammo and bullets we are better today then in years past. In some cases I’ll agree....some skill/knowledge has been lost to the guys who have passed before us. I wish I could sit down at a table with Pope and others and ask why did they do this or why did they do that? What led them to doing a crown this way or that way etc....and that’s the problem I see more and more....big manufacturers are gearing towards more and more production and the old world skills are to an extent being lost. Hell even the local schools are getting to the point of not teaching basic machining skills anymore and this is also coming from the manufacturing sector side....where they only want someone that knows how to program a machine but that new guy at times cannot even make a manual machine run and make a part with it. Feeling/touch part of the skills are being lost I fee and I’m hearing it from the older generations of teachers that are being forced to give it up. One of the local trade schools doesn’t even have a manual engine lathe in the school anymore!
Thanks for all of this. My father-in-law, a local gunsmith and I gained an old rifling machine. Don't remember the brand. It started us down a path to make a Sharps, but, things stalled when 1) we found out how much the raw materials cost!! and 2) medical issues came up. I think the gunsmith made a few pistol barrels (rebored and rifled) but that was about it. The cost of a barrel blank from any of the mfgs was less cost time wise than doing it ourselves.
I still don't know how JES does his barrel work at the prices he charges.
I have been upset about high schools dumping the trades classes for a long time. I felt my time in metal, wood and auto shop classes helped me be a better engineer. I watched many of my peers fail just because they had no idea how their assemblies were going to be made and the difficulties resulting from their design decisions.
And, yes, now days CNC has taken over. And robotics. My son jokes that his job is to put other people out of work as he automates factory processes.
Charlie B, Your welcome!
Also I forgot in my long winded post that we’ve also done 7 groove and 7R type rifling as well.
I’ve always been taught not just with machining but with automotive. You have to know the basics. You know the basics and you can learn the more advanced stuff.
Also as far as updates in technology back to yobucks comment about technology and thinking that it just looks like we know more/better.....we also have bore finishing machines as well (pre rifling) during the barrel making process. Where in the past we use to prelap the barrels by hand (and in rare cases we still might) we now have a machine to do it. This took the human element/error out of it. The finish of the bore per say isn’t any better but it is more consistent because of it. After we tested the prototype machine and purchased one I know a couple of other barrel makers have also purchased one. Since we purchased one we have since purchased another one.
So there are advances in the industry that in most cases the average guy never hears about. Also there are steps being taken in search of a better grade of gun barrel material as well.
Coming along nicely!
Vietnam Vet, Jun 66 - Dec 67
very nice outfit.....im sure it wil shoot as good as it looks!!!!!
thanks for sharing........greg
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