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Thread: Factory Chamber vs. Criterion Chamber

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shortbox4x4 View Post
    That .0001” tightness in the throat would stop the rounds from chambering (not forcing) by the rim thickness of the cartridge sticking out of the chamber.
    Just to put perspective on this for most of those that might read this, that aren't pro's, or do their own work...
    An "average" human hair might be around .003. Now split that hair into 30, even sections.

    Now, none of us can machine to that tolerance (tenths) on manual machines- but thousandths, and less- are always in play; and are the difference between a rifle that shoots, and one that doesn't (not to mention safely keeping 60,000+ PSI contained in a one-inch steel cylinder sitting right in front of your eyeballs). It's a big deal.

  2. #27
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    I am very wary of people who claim to be gunsmiths. There are not very many good ones out there.

    Twice now at the range here I have seen horrible results. One was a guy with his new custom F class rifle. He could not get it to shoot on paper at 200yd cause he ran out of windage adjustment. The barrel was on crooked! I could tell just by looking from behind him when he was shooting. I thought at first the barrel channel was inlet badly cause the barrel was touching one side of the stock tip, but, a straight edge against the action showed the barrel was at an angle. And he had previously mentioned he spent $5000 on it.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    I am very wary of people who claim to be gunsmiths. There are not very many good ones out there.

    Twice now at the range here I have seen horrible results. One was a guy with his new custom F class rifle. He could not get it to shoot on paper at 200yd cause he ran out of windage adjustment. The barrel was on crooked! I could tell just by looking from behind him when he was shooting. I thought at first the barrel channel was inlet badly cause the barrel was touching one side of the stock tip, but, a straight edge against the action showed the barrel was at an angle. And he had previously mentioned he spent $5000 on it.
    Truth. Lots of Gun Jones’ out there. Very few Smith’s

    I’ve always heard about the visibly crooked barrel installation but for the life of me I can’t figure out how it’s done short of clamping the action in a vise and using a 6’ cheater pipe to bend it. Maybe the lathe it was chambered on was totally worn out is all I can think of.

  4. #29
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    I know. You would have to offset the barrel somehow before threading. But, you would notice it cutting the threads wrong.

    And how in heck do you not notice it before you give it back to the customer????

    oh well.

  5. #30
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    There could be a few things causing the barrel to be crooked per say on the action. Thread fit, didn’t cut the shoulder square on the barrel. The barrel itself could have a bad bow to it. Our terminology for being bent. Also how the barrels bore was drilled etc....I’ve got a picture on my phone of a factory Remington barrel where the bore at the muzzle is physically off center about .100”! Not the first one I’ve seen like that either.

    Also and this applies probably more to factory actions but basically the receiver gets heat treated after all the machine work and they can warp/twist to different degrees.

    Before I worked at a barrel maker and or doing any of my own work. I had to have a gunsmith or smith’s do the work for me. I had one guy on my first bolt gun build for an across the course/long range rifle. This guy has won national championships, runs a club as well as matches. So I figured I’d ask him to do my stock work and bed it etc....that was the first and last time he touched my rifle. I could’ve fit the stock better with a Dremel tool! I come to find out he has a nick name and it represents the work he does given to him by locals.

    Same gunsmith I talked about above that did my stock work. Fast forward about 20 years. Yes he is still doing work. How I don’t know. A friend and customer that when available we shoot team matches together. He also does his own gunsmithing work and helps out friends but that is it. He brought me a barrel that the above gunsmith did the installation on. What we found out was he cut the thread tenon smaller than nominal diameter so it would be easier to start and use a threading die to cut the threads on the breech end. I wouldn’t have believed it if I didn’t see it for myself.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shortbox4x4 View Post
    There could be a few things causing the barrel to be crooked per say on the action. Thread fit, didn’t cut the shoulder square on the barrel. The barrel itself could have a bad bow to it. Our terminology for being bent. Also how the barrels bore was drilled etc....I’ve got a picture on my phone of a factory Remington barrel where the bore at the muzzle is physically off center about .100”! Not the first one I’ve seen like that either.

    Also and this applies probably more to factory actions but basically the receiver gets heat treated after all the machine work and they can warp/twist to different degrees.

    Before I worked at a barrel maker and or doing any of my own work. I had to have a gunsmith or smith’s do the work for me. I had one guy on my first bolt gun build for an across the course/long range rifle. This guy has won national championships, runs a club as well as matches. So I figured I’d ask him to do my stock work and bed it etc....that was the first and last time he touched my rifle. I could’ve fit the stock better with a Dremel tool! I come to find out he has a nick name and it represents the work he does given to him by locals.

    Same gunsmith I talked about above that did my stock work. Fast forward about 20 years. Yes he is still doing work. How I don’t know. A friend and customer that when available we shoot team matches together. He also does his own gunsmithing work and helps out friends but that is it. He brought me a barrel that the above gunsmith did the installation on. What we found out was he cut the thread tenon smaller than nominal diameter so it would be easier to start and use a threading die to cut the threads on the breech end. I wouldn’t have believed it if I didn’t see it for myself.
    I’m sure you see some crazy stuff, both good and bad.

    I’ve also seen some off center bores that gives occasion to scratch head, amazingly shooting very well.

    I still can’t figure the out of square barrel shoulder. Seems almost impossible to set up on a lathe, way, way easier to do it right. Threading between centers is nearly a foolproof method as an example. I can see where the “bend” could be induced in the receiver the way some of the factory stuff is mandrel - tapped and faced - off with a chop saw.

    Sorry to go so far off course. What was this thread about again?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    I am very wary of people who claim to be gunsmiths. There are not very many good ones out there.

    Twice now at the range here I have seen horrible results. One was a guy with his new custom F class rifle. He could not get it to shoot on paper at 200yd cause he ran out of windage adjustment. The barrel was on crooked! I could tell just by looking from behind him when he was shooting. I thought at first the barrel channel was inlet badly cause the barrel was touching one side of the stock tip, but, a straight edge against the action showed the barrel was at an angle. And he had previously mentioned he spent $5000 on it.
    I am NOT a gunsmith but I am learning the trade from one of the probably few in this country you could hand a block of steel and say I want a .357 mag or whatever and in a few months you would have one.. I consider myself blessed and armature at best compared to the old man I work with.. it's amazing though the quality of factory rifles compared to even 5 years ago.. today alot of the factory rifles brought in to us to tune and true are already so close it's not beneficial to do anything besides some of the most basic tricks like smoothing triggers or lightening their pull.. if it keeps progressing, there wont be a real need for Smithing.. kinda makes me sad to see such a craft slowly fading

    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted_Feasel View Post
    I am NOT a gunsmith but I am learning the trade from one of the probably few in this country you could hand a block of steel and say I want a .357 mag or whatever and in a few months you would have one.. I consider myself blessed and armature at best compared to the old man I work with.. it's amazing though the quality of factory rifles compared to even 5 years ago.. today alot of the factory rifles brought in to us to tune and true are already so close it's not beneficial to do anything besides some of the most basic tricks like smoothing triggers or lightening their pull.. if it keeps progressing, there wont be a real need for Smithing.. kinda makes me sad to see such a craft slowly fading

    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
    The industry is rapidly evolving- as is/has been all manufacturing, for more than one reason.

    The wide availability of information on the internet...
    No different than anything else, from fixing your truck, to a plumbing leak, to an issue with a firearm. "Google" allows those with the required mechanical aptitude- but lack of technical knowledge- to get that knowledge and do the work themselves, subject to machinery/equipment limitations.

    Increasing quality, decreasing costs of "factory" offerings...
    A factory rifle with a "one moa" guarantee was a big deal not long ago. Now, it's expected from entry-level, $350 turnbolts.
    CNC manufacturing, and multi-million dollar gundrilling machines have reduced costs, tightened tolerances.
    No need to swap out factory barrels for most, as a matter of course to get a sub minute rifle.

    IMO, the smithing "schools" are largely still teaching things the same way they were 30 years ago- which is a mistake.
    The "old timer" will certainly pass along valuable knowledge- but much of the custom work is increasingly being dominated by large shops with the CNC machinery that can bring economies of scale to much "custom" work.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobnpr View Post
    The industry is rapidly evolving- as is/has been all manufacturing, for more than one reason.

    The wide availability of information on the internet...
    No different than anything else, from fixing your truck, to a plumbing leak, to an issue with a firearm. "Google" allows those with the required mechanical aptitude- but lack of technical knowledge- to get that knowledge and do the work themselves, subject to machinery/equipment limitations.

    Increasing quality, decreasing costs of "factory" offerings...
    A factory rifle with a "one moa" guarantee was a big deal not long ago. Now, it's expected from entry-level, $350 turnbolts.
    CNC manufacturing, and multi-million dollar gundrilling machines have reduced costs, tightened tolerances.
    No need to swap out factory barrels for most, as a matter of course to get a sub minute rifle.

    IMO, the smithing "schools" are largely still teaching things the same way they were 30 years ago- which is a mistake.
    The "old timer" will certainly pass along valuable knowledge- but much of the custom work is increasingly being dominated by large shops with the CNC machinery that can bring economies of scale to much "custom" work.
    I agree, But I do stink still think there's a certain nostalgia factor to someone that can take a ra block of steel and hand crafted into a work of art fire arm

    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

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