Seating dies, competition dies ,custom

**69gen1** · 11-08-2019, 07:47 AM

Hello all.. are they any seating dies that actually index off the ogive of the bullit or get a custom seating stem to match your bullit profile I am trying to eliminate some seating variations compared to the hornady comparitor I understand some ogives vary a little but seems like it's more bullit length variations to get consistent seating when setting closer to lands..I have the lee seating die ( yes I know)but if there is a better seating option I will anny up.but the lee dies have served me well until now .they do make custom seat stems for them if u send them sample bullits but I dont know if it works off the ogive or if it's just drilled out a little more.i dropped them a email but not heard back yet.if there is some vender competition seat dies that work well and you can get the stem to match
Bullit profile I would be interested in your alls wisdom and your thoughts on various competition dies...thanks again

**PhilC** · 11-08-2019, 11:15 AM

One thing you can try is remove the seating stem from your die and place over the bullet you're using to see point of contact.

**mikeinco** · 11-08-2019, 11:29 AM

lots of variables again.
what press ?
is the movement set to cam over at the top..hard contact?
where a bullet hits the seating stem and where the measuring tool hits is often not the same place.
that does not create a variation, you just need to understand that ogive is not an exact location.
its all reference numbers to produce repeatable ogive lenth ammo.
presses that flex dont work well for this job so soft al cast material is out. open front presses are out.
tell us exactly what you have and how you do it . we can proceed from there

**Stumpkiller** · 11-08-2019, 11:35 AM

I know Redding has micrometer "competition" seating inserts with VLD (very low drag) vs. all other ogive profiles. I like mine.

I go by separate measurement rather than trusting the die scale. I back it off and seat gradually, measuring each change, then verify the next three and thereafter check about every fifth for C.O.L.

**69gen1** · 11-08-2019, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by PhilC

One thing you can try is remove the seating stem from your die and place over the bullet you're using to see point of contact.

Yes I tryed that it's not touching the main tip its roughly a little down on the taper part and not the ogive.i have been sorting bullits by measureing from base to ogive on amax and hornady hpbt they are relatively close.in these lots anyway max of .002 diff with the hornady comparitor setup but the oal vary up to .009 which is why I was wanting to go off the hornady comparitor measurement from ogive ..if that is even possible

**69gen1** · 11-08-2019, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by mikeinco

lots of variables again.
what press ?
is the movement set to cam over at the top..hard contact?
where a bullet hits the seating stem and where the measuring tool hits is often not the same place.
that does not create a variation, you just need to understand that ogive is not an exact location.
its all reference numbers to produce repeatable ogive lenth ammo.
presses that flex dont work well for this job so soft al cast material is out. open front presses are out.
tell us exactly what you have and how you do it . we can proceed from there

Have about 4 presses the new lyman 8 station tmag turrit used for 9mm 357 and 223 and 2 rcbs rock chuckers that are used in the 308 only 1 of the chuckers is set to cam over that's the sizer..the seater just virtually dead stop.and yes I have a little lee open frt that I use just to knock out primers..dont get me wrong the gun shooting and grouping ok just trying to knock down some of the variables might help might not
Just when I seat the seater hits in a little different spot because of bullit variation in length I understand that different measureing location on bullit is the key how do I eliminate some of this..or am I just thinking wrong.so sometime when a rd is loaded i see a little variation when i measure with the comparitor sometimes not i just assumed it was because of the various length of the bullit..thank you all

**69gen1** · 11-08-2019, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Stumpkiller

I know Redding has micrometer "competition" seating inserts with VLD (very low drag) vs. all other ogive profiles. I like mine.

I go by separate measurement rather than trusting the die scale. I back it off and seat gradually, measuring each change, then verify the next three and thereafter check about every fifth for C.O.L.

Redding dies get high regards where are u getting your measurement from? if at some spot on the ogive what tool do u use.im useing the hornady comparitor

**Stumpkiller** · 11-08-2019, 04:11 PM

I use the same comparator.

I'm a fan and flag waver for Redding. Their factory is 45 minutes away from where I live.

Though I have and do use Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Hornady, Pacific, etc.

**69gen1** · 11-08-2019, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Stumpkiller

I use the same comparator.

I'm a fan and flag waver for Redding. Their factory is 45 minutes away from where I live.

Though I have and do use Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Hornady, Pacific, etc.

I watched a couple vids on the redding micro die and rcbs comp dies looks like the nod goes to redding in the video vs rcbs the reviewer liked the ease of setup on the rcbs but liked redding better.so with the redding die what is it that u like about the redding micro other than redding quality?

**Stumpkiller** · 11-08-2019, 10:34 PM

I like the ease of adjustment, it came with a VLD profile for the bullets I am using, and I trust the brand. I'm sure RCBS produces an equally good one - I just went with Redding.

Don't have both so I can't compare.

I will say I used to load for a .222 Rem using standard RCBS dies and that rifle with an 8X scope would regularly and dependably print five shot groups at 100 yards I could hide under a dime. No one cares about that now but in 1980 that was good shooting for a sporter weight ADL. You don't need the micrometer . . . but it does help.

JW · 11-09-2019, 09:09 AM

I'm a little late in this post but, mike in co hit it with his response. The ogive measurement is a reference when using the comparator.
It sounds like you have a press that will do the job. Redding, rcbs both make good seat dies. I have some of both,also have forster and a custom redding.

You mentioned the ogive difference being .002 and as much as .009 on the length of the bullets.
I am of this thought - when seating, the seater is touching the bullets at the same diameter on the bullet no matter how long each bullet is, it should seat the same as long as the seat stem is contacting the bullet past the tip.
All that said, of the 2 dies you mentioned my vote goes for the redding
Jack

**lonestardiver** · 11-09-2019, 09:25 AM

If the seater makes use of the same diameter as the comparator (the ogive) then it should seat all bullets so that the ogive is the same distance from the lands regardless of the bullet length. On seaters where it pushes the tip of the bullet or has a conical opening to prevent tip deformation, then it will vary more from bullet to bullet type due to length. ELD bullets seems to have more length between tip and ogive as opposed to a standard hollow point, soft point, round nose, flat tip, etc.

Either way, I believe that if you change bullet type/weight you need to adjust your seating die unless you have one set up for each type.

**charlie b** · 11-09-2019, 10:08 AM

This is one reason why I do not like things like the Hornady gage system. Every bullet ogive is slightly different shape. To really find out where to seat a bullet you need to insert the bullet to touch the lands and then measure the OAL of the cartridge. Then adjust your seating die to whatever 'jump' you want, measuring the OAL of the cartridge. Many people use .020" as a 'safe' number. And, yes, the bullet seating die needs to be adjusted for each bullet as well. A Match King has a different setting than an Amax or ELD bullet.

If you settle on one bullet for your rifle you can have the seating stem made for those bullets. This should give the best results for concentric seating of bullets although many just use the standard stem with decent results. FYI, you will need to readjust your seating die if you change stems.

**69gen1** · 11-09-2019, 12:52 PM

Well,thanks to you all I got a clearer picture of what to expect.it sometimes just sets the bullit a little deeper in the case after I done set the depth useing the hornady comparitor and even after sorting the bullits that vary a little from base to ogive. never longer just shorter with numbers of like .003 deeper in case is the most I have seen. so I just assumed by some of the bullits being a little longer than others that the seater was hitting farther up on those bullits even though it might be the same size at that point on the bullit as the others resulting in it setting it deeper in the case.jopefully I am explaining this right.I did get a email back from lee and they stated all there seating stems work off the ogive and that they do make custom stems if u send them a sample of the bullit you are useing ..the cost is 8.00 + shipping which is deffinently cheap enough down side is there lead time is 4 weeks or could be sooner.all in all this hobby is a joy and a great learning experence.thanks again

**Texas10** · 11-09-2019, 12:57 PM

You can drill into the seater to relieve it a bit if you're switching to a more tapered bullet and you find that he meplat (tip) is touching. Otherwise, I'd recommend you buy another seating stem for your die, if available, and when switching to new bullet, pull the stem and check the fit to the ogive. Select the best fitting stem and you'll have greater success in seating bullets.

Keep in mind that neck tension and neck friction play a bit role in seat depth consistency. If the stem you're using is a good fit and you're still seeing inconsistency, you may need to look elsewhere for the issue.

**PhilC** · 11-09-2019, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by mikeinco

where a bullet hits the seating stem and where the measuring tool hits is often not the same place.
that does not create a variation, you just need to understand that ogive is not an exact location.

^^^^

If you know for certain the bullet tip is not bottoming out in your existing seater die, press on with what you've got. I wouldn't bother having a custom seating die made for that specific bullet unless you've got thousands from the same lot. Highly likely the next lot will be different for the very reason mikeinco stated above.

**mikeinco** · 11-10-2019, 11:50 AM

charlie you are wrong or you said something wrong.
i think this is what you SAID wrong

"measuring the OAL of the cartridge."...NOT OAL but base to ogive YES ???

NOT adjusting for each bullet, but each BULLET TYPE...yes ??

imho QUIT with the " Many people use .020" as a 'safe' number." it is your opinion, not a rule.

Originally Posted by charlie b

This is one reason why I do not like things like the Hornady gage system. Every bullet ogive is slightly different shape. To really find out where to seat a bullet you need to insert the bullet to touch the lands and then measure the OAL of the cartridge. Then adjust your seating die to whatever 'jump' you want, measuring the OAL of the cartridge. Many people use .020" as a 'safe' number. And, yes, the bullet seating die needs to be adjusted for each bullet as well. A Match King has a different setting than an Amax or ELD bullet.

If you settle on one bullet for your rifle you can have the seating stem made for those bullets. This should give the best results for concentric seating of bullets although many just use the standard stem with decent results. FYI, you will need to readjust your seating die if you change stems.

**mikeinco** · 11-10-2019, 01:03 PM

69gen,
sort out 5 bullets with the same ogive length.
prep 5 cases and seat the bullets.

if the cartridge base to ogive length is not the same
there is something wrong with your PROCESS

**69gen1** · 11-10-2019, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by mikeinco

69gen,
sort out 5 bullets with the same ogive length.
prep 5 cases and seat the bullets.

if the cartridge base to ogive length is not the same
there is something wrong with your PROCESS

Thanks, thats actually what I did and took seater apart and cleaned it reset it loaded 10 after measureing base to ogive know probs so far think I might of had a weak battery in the electronic caliper that could have been acting up . so changed it and also used a dial caliper to verify..thanks again everyone.so cleaning die and resetting replacing battery in the caliper and double check with the dial caliper one of those looks to have cured it..

**charlie b** · 11-10-2019, 05:52 PM

Mike,

Thanks. Except I do measure OAL, not to ogive. I find with most bullets I use the measurements give the same basic results since the bullet tip to ogive is the same. Maybe if you get into the .001" tolerances there is some difference, but, I have not felt the need to go there, nor do most reloaders.

Yes, except for those in the extreme portions of shooting (like precision long range and bench rest) that .020 off the lands is a safe number. Too many inexperienced reloaders will try to emulate someone who loads closer to the lands without really knowing how to do it.

Keep in mind when I say 'most' people I mean the total number of reloaders, not 'most' precision long range or bench rest shooters. If someone is in here asking questions I classify them in the former group, not the latter, unless they present information that proves otherwise.

**mikeinco** · 11-10-2019, 06:01 PM

i do not know what bullets you use, but it is well known that production bullets VARY in tip length, easily to .015" or more.
i cannot reccommend your methods to anyone.
i had a lot of sierra 52 hp's that were 2 separate lots from two runs. completely DIFFERENT oals.
sierra admitted their error and said they no longer mix bullet RUN lots IN ONE BOX
it is the very reason we DO NOT seat from the tip of a rifle bullet.
your method is NOT COMMON USEAGE in any precision rifle loading

Originally Posted by charlie b

Mike,

Thanks. Except I do measure OAL, not to ogive. I find with most bullets I use the measurements give the same basic results since the bullet tip to ogive is the same. Maybe if you get into the .001" tolerances there is some difference, but, I have not felt the need to go there, nor do most reloaders.

Yes, except for those in the extreme portions of shooting (like precision long range and bench rest) that .020 off the lands is a safe number. Too many inexperienced reloaders will try to emulate someone who loads closer to the lands without really knowing how to do it.

Keep in mind when I say 'most' people I mean the total number of reloaders, not 'most' precision long range or bench rest shooters. If someone is in here asking questions I classify them in the former group, not the latter, unless they present information that proves otherwise.

**charlie b** · 11-10-2019, 09:23 PM

Thanks Mike :)

**Stumpkiller** · 11-10-2019, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by charlie b

This is one reason why I do not like things like the Hornady gage system. Every bullet ogive is slightly different shape. To really find out where to seat a bullet you need to insert the bullet to touch the lands and then measure the OAL of the cartridge. Then adjust your seating die to whatever 'jump' you want, measuring the OAL of the cartridge.

You just described how the Hornady Lock-n-Load OAL Gauge works (formerly the Stoney Point OAL Gauge). You can even send them one of your fired cases or tap it yourself for precise results. They do know what they're doing at Hornady. ;-)

Once you get the OAL length figured out the other products let you tweak and repeat when switching dies or different bullet makes/weights.

**mikeinco** · 11-11-2019, 01:06 PM

just to be clear, the entire reason the stonypoint/hornady/sinclair tools are on the market, is because it is well known
that bullets vary a lot in over all length, and that sorting/measuring by ogive length is much more precise and repeatable.
"oal" ( over all length) is seldom used in precision ammo,unless magazine length is an issue.
base to ogive is used in precision ammo.

**sharpshooter** · 11-11-2019, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by mikeinco

69gen,
sort out 5 bullets with the same ogive length.
prep 5 cases and seat the bullets.

if the cartridge base to ogive length is not the same
there is something wrong with your PROCESS

There's nothing wrong with the process, the problem is in the bullets. The discrepancy in length is from the ogive to the diameter of where the bullet seater stem contacts. I run into the same problem with Berger 105 VLD's. Measure from base to ogive, and they're less than .001".....but when you measure from base to where the seater stem contacts, the length varied up to .010".
It was easy to check, it just so happened that a .20 cal comparator landed in the same spot as the seater stem.
After a lot of frustration and 3 different seater dies later, I tried some Bart's 105 RBT and they all seated the same ogive length, which told me that is was in the BULLETS.