Same idea..but using Titanium & Tungsten Carbide. (Pics)

[Dave Hoback]

So I posted a video of the ease that my bolt lifts. Love me pretty much everyone, I’ve been using a bolt lift kit in my rifle since I built it. The tried & true design that works best..SINGLE bearing ball on flat surface. And it was the old 38spl. case head DIY kit. Have wanted to machine one for sometime but just never got around to it. Until now. Now let me first say I understand that performance between the machined kits & 38spl. case head are pretty much equal! But I figured I would optimize & add a little twist because, well..., I can! Anyone into this stuff know that the harder the surfaces of mating parts, the better. Extremely hard surfaces do not drag as they are not “scratching” one another. (Less drag)

Found some 15/64” Tungsten rod to use because I have the same size end mill.


Also had some 12mm 6AL4V Titanium on hand. I don’t have a lathe, but what little turning I do is via my killing machine.


Turned down a shoulder & to size. Drilled hole in center & pressed in a 5mm Si3N4(Silicone Nitride)bearing ball.
Nice Fit!


On to the Tungsten & BAS. This is my little “addition” to the design. I have noticed the Si3N4 bb starting to dig a divot into the BAS surface. While hardened tool steel, it’s simply no match for Silicone Nitride hardness! So I cut down a small piece of the Tungsten rod, drilled a flat bottom hole with a square end mill & insert the Tungsten just below the surface.




Finished.


So, same thing....but using Titanium and about the HARDEST surfaces you can use! Im gonna make some of these and give them away. This is the first one, so PM me if you want it.

Ill say they wouldn’t be worth making to sell! WAY to labor intensive! Just cutting down the Tungsten piece took FOREVER! But those who know about me know I don’t do this stuff for money! “For love of the game!”

[Robinhood]

Awesome Dave. Keep up the good work!

[Dave Hoback]

Appreciate the encouragement Robin. Thank you.



NOTE: This is first one is now spoken for, but I’m making more. One thing to note..if someone wants the FULL kit, I will first need their BAS to modify/install the Tungsten rod. Can use just the Titanium/BB piece, but as I said, the point of this was to have two surfaces unable to “scratch” (drag) against one another.

And once more...I’m not, nor will I BE selling these. I don’t do that.

[Rstrick0352]

That is super slick and clearly “what right looks like”!

[Robinhood]

Looks like you shortened the threads on the BAS. Did you account for the lift kit's stacked height?

[Dave Hoback]

I did, but actually did that that at the beginning of the build. Using the DIY 38spl case head lift kit. Works with this as well.

Im looking for more Bolt Screws, but they are out of stock everywhere! Might need to grab a 1/20-28 thread Die & start making my own screws. Could make them from Titanium. That’d be kinda cool.

[JeepsAndGuns]

I had a similar experience when I made mine out of brass rod and a tiny ball bearing.
For the time spent making them (I made two, for the two rifles I had at the time), there was no way you could make them and be able to sell them and make any money. If you did make them, you would be pretty much doing it out of the goodness of your own heart.
I need to make a couple more. I have since acquired another rifle and will possibly be getting another one. However my lathe is packed up in storage right now because I am working on moving in the next couple months.

I do think the idea of the insert is a interesting one. Have you done any before and after measurements of the effort to lift the bolt compared to the 38spl case?

[Dave Hoback]

I agree! But I don’t do any of this for money. I have been blessed by The Lord with knowledge & skillset despite being disabled & only one arm to use. I praise His name by passing on some of the benefit to others. And I hope, in turn they pass it along in some way afforded to them, in the future. Was the same when I offered doing trigger jobs for free. Although the powers that be decided against it. I’m sure wheels are already turning to delete this as well. See, those who MAKE MONEY doing this stuff, DON’t like me too much. But as of now, the ones I am making are now spoken for. I’ll probably do more in the future, but for now, I’m out of material.

No, no tests. The tests have been done by others. The single BB in the middle offers the least resistance. And physics dictates that the hardest surfaces offer the least friction against one another. We all know what that Tungsten Carbide is some HARD stuff! And the Si3N4 BB is even harder!

[J.Baker]

Looks good Dave!

One caveat for those not already in the know - If installing one of these the BAS needs to be shortened accordingly to accommodate the length of the titanium piece holding the detent ball.

[J.Baker]

Have you done any before and after measurements of the effort to lift the bolt compared to the 38spl case?

Fred put up some numbers in the link below from testing he's done with the .38Spl case mod. Basically it's good for roughly a 2-lb reduction in lift effort on average.

https://www.savageshooters.com/conte...Bolt-Lift-Kits

[mnbogboy2]

Nice work again Dave. You are an inspiration to offset some of the negativity we see on here at times. God bless you.

[Chris3.Drums]

Looks really good, Dave! Unfortunately (for the purpose of this topic, anyway), my Savage has the cocking indicator that shows through the BAS.

[Dave Hoback]

Looks really good, Dave! Unfortunately (for the purpose of this topic, anyway), my Savage has the cocking indicator that shows through the BAS.

Yes the Axis style. I guess that is pretty much standard on all new 110 series? I don’t have much play with those, but several I trust say they don’t suffer from the heavy bolt lift we know. Robin is fond of that style I believe. Right Robin?


Thank you my friends for the encouragement. I do enjoy posting here. Some negativity no matter what other forum, unfortunately. Seems some people can’t exist without attempting to cause pain & anguish. I posted the video of bolt operation on Calguns, and a stranger there argued basically how “unimpressive” it was. Which is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But he continued arguing that I should have made the lift kit like the Lampeth kit and use the penetrator from a 3006 AP round??? I became confused with the jibberish, and realized he was simply a bitter person content on making others bitter. Best off just not arguing.

[Rstrick0352]

I did, but actually did that that at the beginning of the build. Using the DIY 38spl case head lift kit. Works with this as well.

Im looking for more Bolt Screws, but they are out of stock everywhere! Might need to grab a 1/20-28 thread Die & start making my own screws. Could make them from Titanium. That’d be kinda cool.

I have two bolt screws I just found in my junk drawer collecting dust. They’re yours. Where do you want them sent?

[Robinhood]

What I like about that style is how the cocking pin is more supported (without the huge chamfer on either side that causes the pin to til). You can also do like I have done and machine off the cocking indicator from the end of the cocking piece and put a pointed set screw in it like the Nate Lambeth kit. There is some machine work but it works great.

Point of interest, I have never done this to the axis style firing pin.

[J.Baker]

Yes the Axis style. I guess that is pretty much standard on all new 110 series? I don’t have much play with those, but several I trust say they don’t suffer from the heavy bolt lift we know. Robin is fond of that style I believe. Right Robin?

I'm pretty sure Savage began using the cocking indicator-style firing pins on 110 series rifles in 2005 with the launch of the 14/114 Classic series. They are primarily used on bottom bolt release models as the "flag" on the top bolt release models acts somewhat as a cocking indicator.

[Chris3.Drums]

Thank you my friends for the encouragement. I do enjoy posting here. Some negativity no matter what other forum, unfortunately. Seems some people can’t exist without attempting to cause pain & anguish. I posted the video of bolt operation on Calguns, and a stranger there argued basically how “unimpressive” it was. Which is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But he continued arguing that I should have made the lift kit like the Lampeth kit and use the penetrator from a 3006 AP round??? I became confused with ya jibberish, and realized he was simply a bitter person content on making others bitter. Best off just not arguing.

Good idea. Best not to enter into an argument with an ignorant hater. They will drag you down to their level of stupidity and pummel you with their experience.

I watched your video and it was what you said it would be - showing the ease of movement after your lift kit was installed.

Question: will a bolt from an older Savage without the pass-through cocking indicator function SAFELY in a rifle that came originally with that type assuming all else is equal (.308 in a .308, center-feed, etc)?

[Dave Hoback]

You said it man. I’m getting VERY acquainted with the “Ignore Function” there. Maybe a Commiforni thing?? So many Libtards it makes EVERYONE nasty?

Hmm, I’ve never thought about what you are asking. I believe so. The headspace will need reset I’m sure. But not sure you would want to. Robin has extensive use with BOTH, and prefers the the style firing pin/spring assy. with the indicator bolt. I would ask him about it’s “trick”.

Jim, or Robin should know this better than me.

[J.Baker]

One thing you have to keep in mind when fiddling with the firing pin is total mass (weight) of the FP and energy provided by the spring. Where a lot of guys make mistakes is thinking they can somehow decrease the lock time by going to a lighter FP or spring without taking mass and energy into consideration. This usually ends up in ignition troubles with light primer strikes. Couldn't begin to count the number of folks who have showed up here over the years with ignition issues after installing one of Tubb's SpeedLock Kits when he used to offer them for Savage's.

As much as Savage gets wrong, one thing they did get right was the FP spring rate. The problem is their FP springs can vary by as much as 2-lbs. JeepsAndGuns noted earlier in the other thread that he thought Fred replaced the spring on his rifle when he T&T'd it, but it's still the factory spring. What Fred does is measure the initial rate, and if it's higher than it should be he essentially takes the O.D. down until it measures the spec he wants it to (pounds per one inch of compression). That's why the spring wire looks flat rather than round.

As for Chris's question, yes it would perform normally. When the FP with cocking indicator first came out a lot of guys ordered a replacement solid BAS and old-style FP assembly to replace the new style simply because they didn't like it.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Fred put up some numbers in the link below from testing he's done with the .38Spl case mod. Basically it's good for roughly a 2-lb reduction in lift effort on average.

https://www.savageshooters.com/conte...Bolt-Lift-Kits

I have seen that and it is a good read. However I meant specifically comparing the OP's tungsten insert and Silicone Nitride ball bearing to the 38spl and regular ball bearing. I was just curious if there was a noticeable difference going from the 38spl case and the OP's hard metal version.

[JeepsAndGuns]

JeepsAndGuns noted earlier in the other thread that he thought Fred replaced the spring on his rifle when he T&T'd it, but it's still the factory spring. What Fred does is measure the initial rate, and if it's higher than it should be he essentially takes the O.D. down until it measures the spec he wants it to (pounds per one inch of compression). That's why the spring wire looks flat rather than round.

I was not aware of this. No one has ever explained it. I just knew it looked different and assumed it was a new spring, had no idea it was the original one that was modded. Good to know.

[Robinhood]

As much as Savage gets wrong, one thing they did get right was the FP spring rate. The problem is their FP springs can vary by as much as 2-lbs. JeepsAndGuns noted earlier in the other thread that he thought Fred replaced the spring on his rifle when he T&T'd it, but it's still the factory spring. What Fred does is measure the initial rate, and if it's higher than it should be he essentially takes the O.D. down until it measures the spec he wants it to (pounds per one inch of compression). That's why the spring wire looks flat rather than round.

I never included that information during discussion because I thought that was a protected secret. This is primarily why the lift on the ones I have worked on is so light. I read that some guys believe that the savage firing pin is over cocked. It is not. It may be over sprung though. The first one I tried to grind I went overboard. I use a belt sander now with a fixture to keep it uniform. I also make the cocking piece so there is no pin tilt. I got the idea from the cocking piece with the indicator but Fred has a mod to fix that also.

[txrob5150]

all i can say as someone new to these boards it is impressive the knowledge on here. thank you guys for being involved and posting so much info.

One day, I hope i get to the point where I actually understand it all......

[Dave Hoback]

I have seen that and it is a good read. However I meant specifically comparing the OP's tungsten insert and Silicone Nitride ball bearing to the 38spl and regular ball bearing. I was just curious if there was a noticeable difference going from the 38spl case and the OP's hard metal version.

I indicated in the beginning, not likely to see any discernible increase. Just something I’ve wanted to do. Using the hardest BB & opposing surface(Si3N4 & Tungsten), providing “optimal” conditions, is what I was after.

Ill say, these would not be profitable to sell anyway. Besides the much higher cost of the materials, machining costs & time are WAY above normal. On another site I posted this, I made a comment about Ti being “nice” to machine, but need to be careful of the heat generated and fire. I guess I’m not very good at sarcasm. LOL! An adoring fan in California couldn’t wait to tell me no REAL machinist ever said Titanium was nice to machine. Ugh... Sarcasm aside, I had to explain I’m not a real machinist...just a one armed cripple that loves doing this stuff. LOL. But he’s the owner operator of AR15barrels... so I’m glad he’s got it all figured out. I sure don’t!


This has been great though. Thank you Jim & Robin for all the info. Knew some of it...DIDN’T know ALOT of it! And I LOVE learning new things!

[jkv45]

What is the disadvantage of using a washer between the base of the BAS and the bolt to offset the additional thickness of the pieces instead of cutting it?

Thanks.