Model 12 FV .223 Throat/Lead Jam

[Miocene]

Hello all,
I hoping others can help me with a problem I'm having with the Cabela's special. I have read a few other threads here and really hope it is not a problem that it appears to be. I did not what to hijack another thread so I assumed starting a new one would be in order.
The short version: ogive of multiple brands/designs bullets 'jamming' on what appears to be the throat or lead on new firearm.
History: New M12 .223 with <50 shots fired. Both factory and handloads-
Winchester factory 55 grn SP flat bottom
PPU Match Line 68 grn BT/HP
These were the first shots during break-in and wanted a few pieces of Win brass for later testing. I was getting on paper at the beginning so I start at 50 yds. All 5 shot groups were .550 or less. No pressure signs as I always look at my brass carefully while a barrel cools. All is good at this point and expected to see about MOA or better for the first groups.

PPU The fourth shot rang horribly. Gas coming from areas where I have never experienced. I always wear eye and ear protection so here was the big pay off. Stopped. Checked brass and yep, bulging primers and the last shot biscuit pierced the primer. Wha tha?
Checked ogive variation with remaining rounds (Hornady OAL gauge), all seems good. Measured both fired and unfired brass lengths to be 100% sure these were not 5.56 spec. cases. Actually measured less than SAMMI slightly. Brass is stamped only 'REM .223' as well. Chalked it up to manufacture charges or primer quality.
I decided to hand load a few of my own knowing I am looking at everything to be certain. BUT I ASSUME (oh brother) that all is reamed or cut within SAMMI and I start out super conservative on my loads.
Hand loads were :
Winny brass 1.750
Neck size only .002
Varget: 22.8 grn (always weigh every charge..twice)
Hornady 55 grn SP
Chamfered and deburred
Seat depth: 2.200 = 1.839 Ogive +/-
CCI SRM 400

I still run cases through the firearm prior to charge to ensure all feels 'right' after sizing. I know, over zealous.
They feel just like they should.
Charged, loaded and run a few more seated rounds through the bolt. No resistance, operates smooth.
Groups all shot as expected, < MOA with fliers with this low charge. Two points of impact. I chalk this up to low charge and seating depth being at Hornady recommended. No signs of pressure.
At this point I want to know where exactly MY lands are as I start heading up the charge ladder.
Wha tha?
2.162???? As an OAL?? This is with my Hornady gauge. Measured again, and again, 20+ times and my readings are inconsistent and all over the place.
from 2.162-2.242. And with a fresh new bullet. Checked my modified case, including shoulder position. Perfect match to my chamber using both LE Wilson and Hornady Comparator.
Cleaned, scrubbed the throat lead area. It helped some but very little.
Paint a few bullets with sharpie, and look closely. A ring. A solid ring engaging the bullet a the ogive. Not completely around the bullet, but most of it. Did this no less than 10 times. Same result. More pressure on the bullet did not help. It will NOT touch the lands. I tried a 68 grn BT HP. Much longer and design. Jams at 2.247 with inconsistent results as well. It doesn't seem even close to the lands. I still haven't the lands yet.
I have measured and tried several other methods and though the results are somewhat different in the exact distance to this interference, the short distance remains and the bullet is striking what feels like a solid wall.
I measured the bullets and they are 223.5 +/- .0005.
I found what seemed to be a clue, Of the countless attempts to measure, once or twice i felt the bullet pass by that wall and slip to a deeper depth. About .080 deeper. But only with the 68 grn bullet. And a slight ghost of lands on the bullet but not at the ogive, But well before the ogive closer to the tip.
Am I missing something? Could this throat, lead or freebore be reamed canted of undersized?

Sorry for the length, I wanted to include as much as possible.

miocene

[Bill2905]

I have several Savage 223 barrels that have short throats relative
to certain bullets. Hornady 55gr V-Max and 40 gr V-Max factory ammo
jam in the rifling pretty bad. Sierra 52 gr HPBT hand loads require
shorter seating length and Hornady 52 gr HPBT are impossibly short.
Other bullets can be loaded quite long.

You have to experiment and find what works. I have good success with
the 53 gr V-Max, 69 gr SMK and TMK, and several Bergers. Each bullet
has a unique relationship to individual barrels. You can try loading shorter
just start at the low end of charge weight and do proper load development.

If it’s a new rifle and jamming with factory ammo, you may want to contact
Savage and send it back for evaluation. I probably should have done that
with my first one but I didn’t know much back then.

[charlie b]

Paint a few bullets with sharpie, and look closely. A ring. A solid ring engaging the bullet a the ogive. Not completely around the bullet, but most of it. Did this no less than 10 times. Same result. More pressure on the bullet did not help. It will NOT touch the lands. I tried a 68 grn BT HP. Much longer and design. Jams at 2.247 with inconsistent results as well. It doesn't seem even close to the lands. I still haven't the lands yet.
I have measured and tried several other methods and though the results are somewhat different in the exact distance to this interference, the short distance remains and the bullet is striking what feels like a solid wall.
I measured the bullets and they are 223.5 +/- .0005.
I found what seemed to be a clue, Of the countless attempts to measure, once or twice i felt the bullet pass by that wall and slip to a deeper depth. About .080 deeper. But only with the 68 grn bullet. And a slight ghost of lands on the bullet but not at the ogive, But well before the ogive closer to the tip.
Am I missing something? Could this throat, lead or freebore be reamed canted of undersized?

Sorry for the length, I wanted to include as much as possible.

miocene

First, welcome to the site.

The above indicates to me you might have a bad chamber reaming job. The partial ring at the ogive leads me to believe the chamber is somehow off center to the bore. The second portion about a 'wall' would also support this theory. I suspect your differing measurements are due to this off center condition.

If you could, I would do a chamber cast or at least do a throat cast and it should show the off center condition, if that is the problem. You could use a "pound cast" to get there (pound a soft lead slug into the neck/throat/bore area).

It does sound like you will be sending it back to Savage (after contacting them first and presenting the problem) for resolution.

[celltech]

As an easy reference you might want to use a cleaning rod and mimic the Frankford Arsenal OAL system using pieces of tape as the placeholders. Your wildly fluctuating measurements are very troublesome.

My .223 12FV has an OAL of 2.270" for a 53 vmax while my .223 Axis has a crazy long throat and measures 2.400" for the same bullet.

[charlie b]

And my .223 Axis allows 2.30 to the lands with SMK bullets, and that is after more than 2000 rounds.

[Miocene]

Thanks fellows.
Yes, it's a new rifle. Forget to mention that this is happening with factory ammo as well. A well defined ring at the ogive. I have a microscope and I can clearly see fine machining chatter marks. I feel certain that I'm miles away from touching lands.
Thanks Cellltech- (smiling) that is one of my old methods for checking OAL on a given projectile. Similar but basically the same principle.
Charlie- that's my dread. I have, based upon my methods of madness, a feeling that this throat (or freebore) is either not parallel to the bore, or reamed canted in free bore or lead.
I have a model 25 in .17 Hornet (new then). Savage customer service and I are on a first name basis since that acquisition. They made it right in the end but it took several months and eventually it had to be replaced.
I love my Savages. Don't get me wrong. Some of my best groups in a lifetime. But darn. If a SAMMI spec firearm will not accept (or safely) a SAAMI loaded cartridge, that just seems unacceptable to me.
I considered slipping it over to a smith as it would be so much easier and done once. But this would void warranty. And if it turns out to be serious I could be on the hook for that major cost. I'm probably getting ahead of myself on this one.
I guess I'll give Savage a buzz in the am to start the ball rolling.
Thanks again guys. I appreciate the help.
Steve

[Texas10]

Based upon my observation of several model 12FV's purchased and disassembled, Savage bead blasts and then Blue's the assembled barreled action. This tends to result in not so good cleaning on the inner working, i.e. chamber. I had one 223 that tore up any brass upon ejection. Really rough chamber caused by bluing salts left in the chamber. Savage reworked it and never had that problem again.

So how to know?

Glad you asked!

You're going to have to get one of these eventually, or something like it anyway, so why not start now?https://www.amazon.com/Teslong-Bores...MA9SBDHZ0BNFPX

Best $50 you'll ever spend, and it'll answer so many questions you might have now and later on.

As for measuring your CBTO accurately, I will suggest you use the Hornaday OAL gage a bit differently. First, neck or full length size the LNL cartridge just like you would your brass. Mount it on the tool and insert it into the chamber. Notice if it has any tendency to drag or stick, and cure any deficiencies first.

Seat the bullet a bit long and install it on the tool. Slide it up into the chamber gently and feel for any tendency to drag or stick on the way to fully seated. If it feels like it's dragging before a full stop, it probably due to an undersized or contaminated throat.

Any tendency to stick upon withdrawal means the bullet is in the lands. Seat a bit deeper and repeat.

By doing this repeatedly, you'll gain a feel of what is going on. By the time you've got it all figured out, your endoscope will have arrived and you can confirm visually.

Let us know how it goes.

[Miocene]

Thanks Tex-I have considered a bore scope in the past but didn't feel I could justify the cost, until now. Being able to see in this area sure could help to describe the potential issue to Savage. I bet a cup of coffee that there are a few here whom rec'ed their firearm back from the factory without the issue addressed. WITHIN SPEC.
And yes, I do feel drag as I slowly guide the modded shell in. Two fold. Shell and during bullet insertion. I'm sure my technique needs refining too. With this rifle, it seems that the approach angle once in the chamber makes a difference on how far the bullet seats and how much 'drag' i feel on the bullet insertion. I made a few attempts with a little more gusto and gave it a good solid jam. Not bending the rod but a nice solid push. Boom. It stops cold. I slowly remove the gauge and the bullet remains. Cool. Pop it out with soft dow. No land markings. A deeper indented ring, and no real indication that this technique pushed the bullet deeper than other soft attempts. My other long guns show the lands and though actual readings varies depending on technique, I always see land marks easily. It appears that even with the wildly varying depth readings with this one, 'sticking' projectiles are lodging somewhere prior to the lands. ??
I feel the PPU heavies over pressured because of essentially, a hard bullet jam that I did not feel with bolt closure. Maybe the leverage of the bolt forced the bullets past this 'wall' but was pinching the ogive. I painted a few of these PPU (unfired ones) and cycled through the action. Yep, deep ring at the ogive. And the Winchester factory loads? I guess I got lucky with that bullet design relation. But i see no signs of over pressure on the Win nor was the bolt sticky on extraction for these. I have been wrong more times than right in the past-but I always try to learn from it.
I never found the primer cup biscuit from the PPU pierced primer. I assume the issue caused the over-pressure of this factory round and is not the problem. I cleaned and scrubbed the chamber, free bore, and lead area anyway.
Thanks for the tip on the on the sized case. I feel (and see on my brass) scratches on my new brass -even soft, finger guided extraction. I'll start here first going forward.
I'll post updates.
Thanks again fellows.

[PhilC]

+1 to Celltech's recommendation, there's a topic on the forum, with pictures, using that borescope might reveal exactly what you have going on and could also send the pics to Savage if necessary - Inexpensive bore scope

[J.Baker]

Something that has been discussed here countless times over the years is that SAAMI spec's are 100% voluntary and virtually no factory rifle will have a SAAMI spec chamber. Every manufacturer outlines their own specifications for their own reamers, which are pretty much 100% SAAMI spec up to the case mouth, freebore length and lead-in/throat will be of their own specifications with the freebore usually being noticeable longer than SAAMI spec. They do this as a liability/safety measure to lessen the possibility of a hotter than normal round causing a high pressure event that could blow a primer or separate a case head.

That said, with your findings I would concur with the above recommendations of doing a chamber cast or at the very least bore scoping it to get a better idea of what's going on there. The chamber case will give you the most accurate and detailed information, but if you bore scope you should easily be able to see if there's something odd looking or unusual.

[Miocene]

Thanks Phil,
This one cost considerably less than others I have seen of the same quality. I'm on the brink of buying this one. Just negotiating with myself to ease my conscience of the need for more gadgets. Ah, who am I fooling, I need a good excuse for the wife when she sees another package.

[Miocene]

Thanks J.
This explains a lot and makes sense. The chamber to case relationship. It also explains the gray area of free bore, lead, and throat . From a manufacturer's perspective, I too would be generous in an area that could potentially be dangerous.
I 'm hoping after my discussion with Savage this morning that they understand this appears to be an issue in the opposite fashion. An interference in shorter (jump? free bore?) measure. And this includes off-the-shelf ammo with their conservation dims.
I would prefer casting be performed by a qualified smith, but I have my concerns after speaking with him this morning whether he could or help explain the results to me. So I don't think I'll be able to cast it unless I receive a solid referral in short time. Bore scope is certainly a great tool for identifying problems and providing info to the factory in my case. Not to mention all the stuff I could look at that I never have been able to before!

I appreciate all the help guys. Keep 'em coming.
Steve

[243winxb]

PPU- cheap ammo, bad brass, over load?

[Miocene]

.243-
Maybe any or all the above. I have been in contact with a PPU tech, waiting for their label to return the ammo for further review. I tend to be a stickler when it comes to providing feedback to manufacturer in regards to product quality.
The rifle is headed back to Savage for their review also. New firearm so I elected to exercise the warranty. Painful as it is, stripping optic and mounts that we so meticulously mount.
I have had bitter sweet experiences with Savage with a new model 25 in the past. Many calls, very long wait, returned it twice as the first time it was evident that the firearm slipped by the tech without analysis. In the end, that one could not be repaired and was replaced with well..um..any model of my choice. I was driving and felt the need to pull over once I clearly understood what she was saying. From that moment, food tasted better, cats and dogs living in harmony.

I feel confident that whatever the issue is, it's not that extreme. Whether firearm or ammo or a little of both. If indeed it is the firearm, I know Savage will stand behind it and make it right.

[azguy]

Based upon my observation of several model 12FV's purchased and disassembled, Savage bead blasts and then Blue's the assembled barreled action. This tends to result in not so good cleaning on the inner working, i.e. chamber. I had one 223 that tore up any brass upon ejection. Really rough chamber caused by bluing salts left in the chamber. Savage reworked it and never had that problem again.

So how to know?

Glad you asked!

You're going to have to get one of these eventually, or something like it anyway, so why not start now?https://www.amazon.com/Teslong-Bores...MA9SBDHZ0BNFPX

Best $50 you'll ever spend, and it'll answer so many questions you might have now and later on.

As for measuring your CBTO accurately, I will suggest you use the Hornaday OAL gage a bit differently. First, neck or full length size the LNL cartridge just like you would your brass. Mount it on the tool and insert it into the chamber. Notice if it has any tendency to drag or stick, and cure any deficiencies first.

Seat the bullet a bit long and install it on the tool. Slide it up into the chamber gently and feel for any tendency to drag or stick on the way to fully seated. If it feels like it's dragging before a full stop, it probably due to an undersized or contaminated throat.

Any tendency to stick upon withdrawal means the bullet is in the lands. Seat a bit deeper and repeat.

By doing this repeatedly, you'll gain a feel of what is going on. By the time you've got it all figured out, your endoscope will have arrived and you can confirm visually.

Let us know how it goes.

Sounds like a head space problem.

[Miocene]

I received the M12 back from Savage yesterday. I was told by customer service that they 'reamed and polished it'. Also tightened up the mag as they said it was loose.
Passed test fire as well. I left a detailed note to the GS or master tech with the firearm explaining my concern. Upon receipt, I confirmed my serial and mating bolt, inspected the fired brass they returned to me and checked the new shoulder position. .001 difference exactly compared to my original fired brass. OK, I kinda expected that. Nothing of concern. Then I checked the OAL with the same 55 grn SP bullet (Hornady's OAL gage with modded case).
Same. Same 180 degree solid ring around the ogive without any signs of the lands.

OAL Hornady 55 grn SP results:
2.220 (using mild pressure)
2.260 +/- .003 (using a firm shove on the plunger of the tool)

My home grown, old method using a cleaning rod and hash marks produces 2.222 OAL.
100 yd 5 shot group printed generally the same as before. .660 including the first wild cold shot. Last four shots in the string punched <1/2 MOA. Decent for factory FMJs'.
I guess I will watch for over pressure and just shoot it. Who knows, maybe I will be the one person whom looks forward to throat erosion in hopes that it may help correct the issue, if one really exists.
Wanted to follow up with all who helped.