In my new quest for a little more distance, I've seen a lot of mention of 77gr bullets thru a 1-9 barrel, some as short as 18". It would seem that 73gr is the accepted max for a 1-9 twist. When I get home from my summer job in Nov (I hope!), I will try a box of also recommended 73gr SMKs with some H335 or 4895. I tried some 69gr Hornadys, but didn't have time to really test them before leaving for the summer. I have added a Boyds AT 1 TH stock and 12x42 SWFA to my Axis, trigger's at about 1 1/2 lbs. Shooting Fiochhi 62gr ($.44 a pieceno press in my 5th wheel!), I usually have two or three touching at 100 yards and repeatable hits on a 4" disc at 250. A good combo, not my questionable skill level. I will be doing a rifle class at 550yds soon after I get home. My question, there IS a question, is will a 26" 1-9 HB give a 77gr bullet a wee bit more time to spin up vs a 22"? I don't think an extra 100ish fps is worth a barrel change but the capability to shoot a heavier bullet might. An after market barrel is not in the budget, I am thinking a 26" 1-9 take off. Thoughts or opinions gentlemen?
As a rule barrel length is determined by the length needed to burn the powder for a specific powder/bullet combination.
Slower burning powders like those used in larger cases using heavy bullets require more barrel length in order to burn it.
A longer than necessary length isn’t better however and can have an undesirable affect on the bullet.
VELOCITY is a big factor in stability. bbl length adds velocity, i would shoot a 26 at 500 plus.
mine is actually 27"
Yobuk, A couple of articles have shown 22"ish to be optimum for .223, yet so many shoot long barrels in comp, ie F/TR. Hence my confusion with my limited experience.
Mikeinco, I understand the gain in velocity, especially if using a slower powder to take advantage of the extra burn time. I was wondering about a gain in stabilization with the extra 4". That being, my research, when getting ready to buy earlier this year, showed the was a quite a number of folks that, like you, were very happy with the longer barrel. I was considering the 12FV, but decided on the Axis for a variety of reasons. Thanks for the replies!
First, I would rather have a longer barrel on my Axis .223HB, but, I only have a 22",
I just finished some trials shooting the 77SMK out to 1000yd. It does stay stable. But, any little wind tosses the bullets around. I managed a 18" 10 shot group in a light and variable wind and hit a gallon milk jug after 8 shots. I won't shoot at that range with the .223 again, it was just to see if the bullets were stable.
It seems to do really well at 600yd. I managed a 3.9in group that same session (just 3in below the bull). I have a 6in steel plate that I like to set up at that range and can hit it most of the time. On a good day I can hit the 4in plate on a regular basis and soda cans are fun too, but hard for me to hit all the time.
The 69gn match bullets also do well but the 77gn seem to be more accurate for me. I have tried the Hornady 75gn, Nosler 69gn and Nosler 77gn match bullets. The Sierras, were just a bit better for me. I have tried some 55gn bullets but they just did not do as well, which is fine with me because my 'plinking' is done at 300 to 600 yd.
Powder. I tried some others and keep coming back to Varget. I shoot at sunrise so temps can go up 30deg during a session so the temperature stability of Varget is really noticable. But, I have had really good groups with several powders, so, just find one that works for your situation. My Varget load is 23.5gn and is just under 2700fps.
Mine has a Boyds Pro Varrmint stock and Vortex Diamondback 4-16 on a Weaver rail. Note that I did not need a 20MOA rail to do the 1000yd shots. The Vortex scope adjusted up the 36MOA (from the 100yd zero) needed to hit the target.
FWIW, all of this shooting was done off a Harris bipod and rear bag on a fixed bench (not prone).
Last, this rifle has well over 2000rnds through it at this point.
According to ballistic stability calculators a 77gr in a 9 twist is right on the ragged edge and the difference between 2000/2800 fps is negligible. It's also worse if the bullet is one of the long ballistic tip models like a ELD or TMK. In short, you won't know unless you try but be prepared to drop it down to something like a 69gr TMK...they work great in my 9 twist.
The simplified stability calculators are just that, simplified. They can say for sure that some bullets will be stable and some will not, but, they are not that accurate. The authors take quite a few factors and lump them into a fixed number, which can give you misleading results, especially with the better designed bullets.
Which is why I did my own testing.
i do not know how you can make that statement WITHOUT the bullet length.
2000 to 2800 fps makes a big difference in the real world.
calculators do not shoot well
Originally Posted by celltech
And that’s the best way Charlie, and you know what else?
That wont ever change because of a new bullet or powder coming along, or using a longer barrel either.
They are all good to a point, after which you need bigger, having equal or better velocity.
Right now the 6mm is the popular choice for 1000 yd benchrest, except of coarse when it’s windy.
Then those having 30s along also will be using them, fact is some of the best shooters always use them.
Conditions always rule, period, the most we can do is adjust to them as best we can with our equipment choices, of coarse individuall ability does play a roll also.
The good test would be to take a 223, a 22/250 AI, and a good 6mm on a prairie dog hunt where shots will be from say from 100 out to 800 yds or more.
Take the same amount of ammo for each, and count the number of each you bring back.
Remember that after about 15 minit’s of shooting, you wont be seeing many close ones.
First, thanks to all for replying.
Charlie B, good stuff, especially since you too, are using a 22"! I bought the SWFA 12x because of the 40MOA adj. I may end up with a 20x with a 20 MOA mount in the future. The 69gr SMK seems to be a hands down favorite for the 1-9 and, of course, there are many fans of Varget. When I get back home, the 69s will be the first trial. Down the road, I will give the 77s a 'shot' after establishing a baseline for accuracy with the 69s. I'll go ahead and stick with my 22" pencil barrel,for now and just watch my temps. I take an infra red temp gun to the range and my grandmother's '37 Win 69A 22 to shoot while the .223 cools. I have more work to do on the trigger, pillar and bed the action, and a LOT more work to do on my skill set, hence the classes, plus I shoot paper and steel matches with my 1911s. Fortunately, when I get done here, I'm off work til next summer and my home range is 15mins away. Most importantly, I have an understanding wife! When I get ready to go out to 1K, I'll borrow my son's .308!!
Good choices all. FWIW, mine is not bedded at all. I decided to see how it would shoot first and it did so well I didn't bother with the bedding. I am at best a 1/2 moa shooter anyway. One day I may get better with a tactical bipod, but, until then I an happy.
The 69's are a good choice. For me they do well with a wide variety of powders. And the Noslers are almost as good as the SMKs and cost less (for me anyway).
yobuck, thanks and I agree. I have .308 that I used for longer range stuff, until I decided to shoot cast with it. So my shooting range of choice has gone to the 300yd and 600yd berms, All good for me to test my shooting skills, especially windage.
If I can get to a 'consistent' sub moa, maybe less, I'll be happier. My trigger pull is getting better, it's actually helping my pistol shooting. Unfortunately, if I'm not working, it's raining. Been raining for three days and snowed this morning! There's a kit to pillar and bed the Boyds so, why not? And as to my original question, it would seem the 4" extra, giving the extra burn time with a slower powder and spin up time, might be worth the effort if I can find a reasonably priced 26" barrel in the future. I'll wait for Midway to have a free shipping day and order up some 69s and continue shooting lighter FBs for shorter distances. Just got the word, I'm done til Mon while the dirt roads we are working on dry. I'm down several thousand dollars from this time last summer 'cause of the rain. Wettest summer on record. Maybe the range will dry out. Oh well, should be home next month with more in the bank than I left with. Thanks again guys.
No. A 26” barrel is not going to help you vs a 22” barrel on a .223. Especially since you want to shoot 69gn bullets. If you really want to shoot long range match with a .223 then go with a 1-7twist 26” heavy barrel and start thinking 80+ grain bullets.
For 600yd work a 22” barrel will preform fine. If anything get a take off heavier contour barrel.
The best thing you can do is put 1000rds down the tube. Break the gun in.
Bedding doesn’t need a “kit”. Many products can be used to bed an action. I prefer JB weld. I’ve done 3 guns that it improved the grouping. Or a least made it to where I could torque the action down to 60#
FYI the swfa 20x is a little weird/fuzzy.
I went with 12x and make 600yd shots sub MOA all day with little wind.
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h/kiler, the Boyds is rather thin when the front mount is drilled for a pillar plus the Axis uses the plastic mag catch. The kit I'm talking about replaces the plastic with a metal pillar/ catch. That's why a kit. It is specific to the Axis, if you haven't seen it. Yes, I do want the heavier contour tho. It isn't a question of 'wanting' to shoot a 69gr, it is whether or not a 22", vs a 26", 1-9 will stabilize a 73 or 77gr bullet. Many here, and on other forums, seem to have had good success with 77smk's in a 1-9. I'm a long way from the skill level needed for a 1k yard shot which is why I will be taking a long range course, two day at 550yd, when I get home. As you, and these other gentlemen, have suggested, I think the 69s will do fine with a little load development and continued refinement of the rifle. BUT...I'm always looking to push the envelope a little farther, see what the rifle, and I are capable of. One of many character flaws. The rifle course will be a start. I have read that the 20x can be iffy? plus has a tighter eye relief. That, plus the extra adj, is the reason I started with the 12x. Very happy with it. Appreciate the reply.
I recommend the 77gn and yes my rifle is 1-9.
Its the ogive of the Serria match king bullets that make them work. And where the lead is in the copper jacket. Not necessarily the weight of the bullet.
All you need to bed is the recoil lug/ front of action in my opinion.
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I was not disappointed with the 77gn performance at 1000yd, it is just not what you want for that range. I guess I like to see all my bullets hit in a smaller area, regardless of range.
600yd it is just about perfect and that's where I will do most of my shooting with it.
And, yes, when I get to the point I need a new barrel I will get a 1-7 or will move 'up' to a 6 or 6.5mm
bs,
the original question was longer heavier bullet. the 69 is just a bullet to try.
a longer bbl will give the opportunity for more velocity with a 70 plus gr bullet
i own 223 with 16- 27 " bbl, i know not just talk, been there done that.
i agree an 8 twist maybe 7 will help.
more velocity will help with stability
I think you are right about the barrel change but if you want to go heavy bullet in 223 go with faster twist.I don't think an extra 100ish fps is worth a barrel change but the capability to shoot a heavier bullet might.
Funny thing about slow twist custom barrels, the good folks making them always seem to want to get paid for them!! WBM, as you can see by my number of posts, I am new to CF rifles. Hence the Axis bought when the rebates were out. I'm not sure 'budget' is a strong enough term and a custom barrel isn't in it, tho I do watch some classifieds. If I can reach a much higher level of competency, then maybe I'll do a build with a better action for a base. For now, I'll try some of the ideas expressed here, and at other forums, continue to advance my education, and continue to improve the Axis. I'm still amazed at what a $200 rifle is capable of. If it would stop raining, wettest summer on record, I'd get some practice in and maybe we could get back to work so we can finish up here and I can go home where the sun still shines.
Well then since you're new, let's get to "bottom lines". 223 ain't the way to go with long range...sorta like scratching your back with a claw hammer...can be done and it works but you're glad when it's over. Long range is better done with 6mm. You can buy a Savage already chambered in something like a 6mm Creedmoor and be way ahead of the 223 stuff AND probably spend less than with a "custom super duper barrel."WBM, as you can see by my number of posts, I am new to CF rifles.
Exactly, if shooting that far is the goal, start with a different gun.
First off velocity isn’t created by barrel legnth, its created by pressure, caused by gas, caused by powder burning.
Every cartridge/ bullet combination has an ideal powder, which is why we test loads.
YES, the larger cases like the larger magnums prefer slower burning powder, and hence the need for a longer barrel.
But, even those aren’t as long today as in past years due to newer powder choices.
I have no idea as to why some competitors are using 30” barrels with 223s, but it has nothing to do with obtaining the needed velocity.
Accuracy is the desirable goal, not max velocity. A few more clicks on a scope offsets that anyway.
This is probably not applicable for the OP since it seems to me that he already owns a .223 and is looking to increase his shooting skills without buying a new rifle.
I ended up with a .223 for several reasons.
1. I wanted to be able to use cheap ammo
2. I wanted decent barrel life
3. Inexpensive rifle with a heavy barrel
4. Decent accuracy at shorter ranges.
Walmart had their package Axis in .223 HB so I bought it. At the time I had no intention of shooting beyond 200yd and I didn't even plan on reloading at the time.
Well, turned out that the cheap ammo wasn't very accurate. I made the mistake of getting some Gold Medal Match and put 10 rounds into less than an inch at 100yd and 1.5" at 200yd. I couldn't afford to keep buying that stuff so I went back to reloading (I had put all my stuff in storage).
Other circumstances have also changed, one of which was a move back to southern NM from the southeast. That meant instead of being limited to a 200yd range I have a 1000yd range to use.
I do love the lack of recoil. I can concentrate on my shooting technique rather than 'fighting' the recoil of larger caliber.
So, out of the initial reasons for buying the .223, not many apply much anymore. But, this darn thing is accurate enough to keep my interest.
One day, if the barrel ever wears out, I will have to decide on staying with a .223 or moving up to something else.
I do agree that if you are looking for a long range rifle I'd go with something a bit bigger, especially given the availability of the 6.5CM in similar packages for same kind of money. If you are serious about 1000yd or more then other calibers might be preferable. Of course, if a custom barrel is considered then the buyer should pick his purpose and choose a cartridge that suits that purpose.
CharlieB has it. If I want to go to 1k, I'll borrow my son's .308 Tac rifle, and use up HIS ammo! I believe I mentioned that. When deciding to buy, considering it's my first foray, costs, including reloading, were a deciding factor in choosing the .223 over the equally common, and more capable, .308. I even looked at .243, .260, .270and, of course, 6 and 6.5. My initial success with the Axis makes me want to test it's limits. I do understand the diff tween a 300BC bullet vs a 400+ at 1k in a side wind. While there are people shooting .223 1k, that's not my intention and I apologize if I gave that impression. 500ish will be the max. I'm bangin steel at 300 with 50gr FBs, so I've explored FB vs BT. I've read articles about cutting barrel to find the optimum length, but see people very happy with longer barrels. I'm simply trying to expand my knowledge, maybe determine an optimum direction to take from here when I get back home. Nothing is set in stone. Thanks again.
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