Reply With QuoteIt's almost like ES and SD are worthless at short range.Originally Posted by mikeinco
lets start with a very basic statement.
there are RELOADERS
and then there are AMMO CRAFTERS.
I have seen people here and else where crying that all the small steps some of us take
are just wasted, of no real benefit.
today while testing some ammo for a rifle, a bunch of those little steps paid off.
shooting three shot groups at 200 yards the chronograph read:
shot 1 2631
shot 2 2631
shot 3 2631
ave 2631
es zero
sd zero
i'd like to say there was only one hole but that would not be true.
It's almost like ES and SD are worthless at short range.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
I would like to have a sample of 5.
If you loaded up more how did they fair?
and I agree, how could precision loading be a negative or " waste"
I have been tring to go that way with my limited set of tools and was all smiles when I had a SD of 7.
Good reloading.
That's is quite an accomplishment!
I'm not sure you'll see that often given the possible variables due to powder burn, primers, etc. but it is certainly a rarity.
It's nice to know it is possible. I've never had it happen.
IT IS the first zero ES/SD i have ever shot.
i have actually shot 1's before.
and in the math world, essentially all shooting samples are too small for "statistical" es/sd.
the math is based on LARGE sample sets..like a 1000 or more.
but we still use the output tho it is barely "DATA' with our small sample sizes.
i shoot a ladder , 10 or so 1/100 of case vol steps , singles in steps. as in a ladder
pick several data points and shoot 3 shot groups .
from the 3 shot group data i shoot one or 2 five shot groups,
and then pick the best and play with seating depth.
range is aprox 100 miles one way took three rifles
I would like to have a sample of 5.
If you loaded up more how did they fair?
and I agree, how could precision loading be a negative or " waste"
I have been tring to go that way with my limited set of tools and was all smiles when I had a SD of 7.
Good reloading.
I am impressed you drive 200mi just to shoot.
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I tune my loads to my gun. And I load on a RCBS Rockchucker and a 505 Scale and I load one at a time.
I shoot 5 shot groups and I single load.
2 or 3 shot groups don't prove anything except that you're getting close.
A "5 shot group" that can be covered with a dime () is what I strive for.
ES?
SD?
My Chronograph hasn't been out of it's box in over 10 + years.
Never was concerned about FPS. Never seen anything out run one of my bullets.
If I can't hit what I'am aiming at, I've got problems and need to start over.
My targets don't know how fast the bullet is going when it gets hit.
As long as all my shots are going in the same hole, I'am happy.
Good thing we all don't think the same. Sure would be a boring world.
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
and i still tend to ignore your posts. reloader vs ammocrafter.
how are your 2000 yard groups ?
1000 yard groups ?
600 yard national titles ??
you are entitled to do as you please,
it does not work for me.
I tune my loads to my gun. And I load on a RCBS Rockchucker and a 505 Scale and I load one at a time.
I shoot 5 shot groups and I single load.
2 or 3 shot groups don't prove anything except that you're getting close.
A "5 shot group" that can be covered with a dime (
ES?
SD?
My Chronograph hasn't been out of it's box in over 10 + years.
Never was concerned about FPS. Never seen anything out run one of my bullets.
If I can't hit what I'am aiming at, I've got problems and need to start over.
My targets don't know how fast the bullet is going when it gets hit.
As long as all my shots are going in the same hole, I'am happy.
Good thing we all don't think the same. Sure would be a boring world.
charlie,
i live in the phoenix area. in the summer it is always over 90..more like over 100.
where i compete it is typically 75-90, so i need to test in the temp band.
if i drive 100 miles northeast i am in the low mountains and seldom see 90,, typically 70-85.
$50 to join the club, 7/24 access. limited to 300 yards, but the elevation and temp both work for me.
i go out early, set up, shoot, pack up and home by 1030/1100.
i drive well over 1000 for the matches..one way.
QUOTE=charlie b;458856]I am impressed you drive 200mi just to shoot.
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And that right there is why half the people on this site don't like you. You're rather full of yourself and have this attitude that anybody who doesn't do it "your way" is somehow inferior. Lot's of ways to skin a cat, and comments like that just show everyone how much of an ass you are.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
Although I've never experienced the statistical zero SD/ES, I have got it down into the one's on occasion. As some will remind though, a perfect SD/ES rarely shoots a perfect group, and that is why I let the target do the talking as much as possible.
I have however, found a repeatable way to shoot 5 shot, one hole groups, every time. SD/ES can be all over the place but it never fails me. 5 shots, one hole. Ok, sometimes it's a bit ragged one hole. The trick is to (using wind flags) be as precise as possible in shooting that first shot, then crank the elevation turret up until it hits the stop and fire 4 more. One hole group, every time.
Banning a gun will not solve what is a mental health crisis inflamed by incendiary rhetoric on social and television media. The first amendment in this case is less precious and more likely the causal factor than the second amendment.
the good news is i really do not care.
i shoot PRECISION rifle at several distances.
i KNOW what precision is and what "reloading" is.
i guess i need to go do an intro that explains what i do and how i do it.
everyone has their own idea of "accuracy", most times it is not close to how i compete.
100 yard benchrest, 600/1000/2000 yard benchrest .
i build my own rifles, i load my own ammo.
i am new to savage rifles, i am not new to serious precision rifle shooting.
i have no idea why norcalmike decided to post. hear himself ?? we have crossed paths on several forums
and have seldom agreed. its not new.
I can’t count the number of times I’ve shot groups with and Es of 3-5 fps and was rewarded with a mediocre group. My go to load when shooting local 100 yard BR had an ES of 35 fps but shot in the high .1s for 5 shot groups.
The only time I bother with the chronograph any more is when I’m working with a new wildcat or getting velocities before lobbing shots at the other side of a valley.
"we have crossed paths on several forums"??? News to me.
I just mentioned what and how I do things and you end up making a pissing contest out of it?
I think we've got your number. I guess it's hard to be humble when you're so good?
Like I said, sure glad we all don't think the same.
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
I tend to let people have their victory even if I don't really think it's worth celebrating. Shooting small (very small) groups is rewarding (I assume) and shooting a zero FPS ES/SD string is also rewarding (again I assume). Why one Kung fu has to better than another is just a bit confusing to me. I guess I just don't understand.
I couldn't find the emoji I wanted, (shaking head).
What kind of shooter you are or how good of a shooter you may be or what disciplines of competition you shoot has absolutely nothing to do with how you interact with and treat others. The whole "I don't care" comment just reinforces my statement about your having an attitude problem.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
"The whole "I don't care" comment just reinforces my statement about your having an attitude problem".
The first thing I would do if I was him? Be real careful not to trip on my Ego. From how high he's put himself, it's a looong fall.
Sure looks like if you don't agree with him, YOU'RE the bad guy, no matter who you are.
Don't know him or where he came from BUT, I'am impressed that little old me, without even trying, could wind his clock.
Didn't know I had it in me, and without even trying.
Bet he's fun to live with.
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
Team Savage
Validation, Most need it to one degree or another.
MikeinAZ
My question is: if you come to a forum and post your successes and continuously beat others down for not being as good as you are. What is the purpose? It is definitely not to help others. I don't think it is comradery. All it can be is validation.
You offer no help or appreciation for others. Just insults. You are either a curmudgeon or a fibber. You could just open up MS word and write about how awesome you are(where no one would ever see it), but you don't. You come to a forum hoping others will read about your alleged accomplishments and elevate you to the status you feel you deserve. That's a need for validation.
There are many guys out there that are much more accomplished than you and they treat people with respect. You insulted bigedp51 the other day. He helps people everytime he post. He takes time to share the collected gifs and pictures with hand written text explaining what he feels is the best advice. bigedp51 lives to help others even if misconstrued by some. All of your knowledge is worthless if not shared.....It is OK to be about you, just be about others too.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Robilhood:
You WERE speaking about mikeinco NOT mikeinAZ?
( You insulted bigedp51 the other day)??
I wasn't aware of that. Looks like mikeinco hates ANYBODY that doesn't think the same way he does?
(and I was thinking it was just me??)
Appears he has a LOTS of smarts but is so intent on running other folk down that don't agree with him, in the end he can't accomplish anything. Just a legend in his own mind. What a shame. The man needs to be prayed for, REAL HARD!!
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
lol! ya thinkThe man needs to be prayed for, REAL HARD!!
I'm not implying this about anyone, just offering some perspective about what it's like to be raised by a narcissist.
It's been my experience that when you're raised by a Narcissist that everything you do is diminished so that the narcissist can always feel that they're the best. Your belief in yourself MUST be strong just to survive that environment while growing up because what you'll always hear after relating how you accomplished something is " I did it THIS way it was better". So anytime the narcissist survivor hears how someone else did it differently, they'll go back to their survivor behavior and it frequently comes out sounding angry, when in fact it's really them feeling diminished, and for no good reason.
The narcissist survivor may or may not themselves become a narcissist, but they will always have the fleas of the narcissist. As the saying goes, if you lay down with a dog, you'll wake up with fleas, and so it is with a narcissistic parent.
It is also what drives the narcissist survivor to excel in everything they do, and they frequently do quite well in competition because LIFE ITSELF BECOMES A CONSTANT COMPETITION, courtesy of the narcissist and they're quite accustomed to the pressure.
That's all I have to add to this conversation. It's my opinion that the thread itself has no value except as a means to crucify others, it seems.
Banning a gun will not solve what is a mental health crisis inflamed by incendiary rhetoric on social and television media. The first amendment in this case is less precious and more likely the causal factor than the second amendment.
Wow.
Ok, so first, I appreciate the accomplishment and as an engineer I'd like to know how it was done. What kinds of details were attended to and what kind of equipment was used to minimize those details. Sometimes I learn something that helps me with my "cheap" equipment (I reload mostly for the fun of it).
Second, I grew up in Glendale, AZ. Neighbors were shooters at the Thunderbird range (now in the middle of huge residential areas) and we used to drive out to the desert in that area to shoot jackrabbits. Went to Black Canyon a couple of times but not on a regular basis. I am surprised it still exists being in the middle of all that build up. Now in southern NM so the heat is an issue I am familiar with when shooting, and something I try to account for when loading and making up dope tables, since I also shoot during the winter here. Mike, did you go to school in the Phx area? My mother and father (and grandfather) were high school teachers at several different schools in the 50's to 80's (Glendale, Central, Phoenix Union, Alhambra, Maryvale).
Last, I do not compete. I never found it interesting or satisfying. I do like improving my own work. As far as labels go, anyone who reloads is a reloader. Some have different goals or reasons for doing so. Some like to make precision ammo. Others reload just to save money. Others because they like to. Same with rifles. Some like to build their own out of "cast offs", others only use the most precise components and some just buy a rifle off the rack to shoot. None of these people are "better" than anyone else. Someone who shoots once a year to get an elk in the freezer is just as "good' as a national/olympic champion shooter.
DD,
when i narrow down the load ii will shoot 5's.
there is a reason to not shoot fives early in load development.
if your goal is 1/2 moa, and you loaded up
5 loads in your choice of increments and you shoot
three shots of load one and the group is clearly an inch or more,
let me ask you a question:
how much SMALLER will the group get with shots 4 and 5 ?
ANSWER it cannot get smaller.
if 1/2" is your goal and you are at 1" with 3 shots, shooting the last 2 is:
a waste of time
a waste of components
a waste of money.
in the early steps of load development there is a clear reason to
shoot 3's and not 5's.
all loads i shot that day were single didget es's.
I would like to have a sample of 5.
If you loaded up more how did they fair?
and I agree, how could precision loading be a negative or " waste"
I have been tring to go that way with my limited set of tools and was all smiles when I had a SD of 7.
Good reloading.
I can see your logic.
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