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Thread: 12fv build w/ pics

  1. #26
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFJunkie View Post
    Here is a link to Chris Long's original article - copyright 2004
    http://www.the-long-family.com/shock%20wave%20theory%20summary%20explanation

    In my opinion, anything over 24 inches will work and we know that 26 inches also works.
    There is no reason why 27 inches won't also work beautifully.
    A 27-inch barrel would be perfect for bench shooting, but I'm not sure you will want the extra barrel weight when hunting.
    That decision is purely up to you and your understanding of the use you intend.

    What i I just realized was I am trying to get the best of both worlds in one when I have the best of both worlds but I need two. On for each world. This is a savage after all. Surprised no one else smacked me in the head with this one...

  2. #27
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    Ah, yes I forgot you are looking for a hunting rifle. But you did say “long range” didn’t you? So that is to be considered. I left the hunting world years ago, so I rarely give it thought. But I do remember still that when lugging a rifle on my shoulder, there was indeed a significant difference, in weight between a 24” & 26/27” stick. I like your 2 gun idea though. I have a friend that spent a bit turning his Model 70 into a long range Hunting/target rig chambered in 6.5-06. He is now building another rifle starting with a Titanium action. WEIGHT became a bigger issue than turning 1/4moa groups.

  3. #28
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    Placed order.

    started to prep cases to keep busy. Set up the worlds finest triger and used it for the first time.
    If you are unfamiliar with this trimmer, I have a thread about it here:
    http://www.the-long-family.com/shock...xplanation.pdf

    it was not any more precise then my hornady hand trimmer.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    Last edited by DesertDug; 05-22-2019 at 04:35 PM. Reason: typo

  4. #29
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    Cases chamfered and flashholes debured.

  5. #30
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    Are all the brass in the picture trimmed, or just the 1.898 and 1.899 brass.
    Was there a difference in 0.011 between the 1.899 and the 1.910 due to trimming.
    I suspect that
    the 1.910 brass had not been trimmed (since it is right on the SAAMI recommended trim length and wouldn't need trimming anyway)?

    I think the difference of 0.001 between 1.898 and 1.899 trimmed brass is really good, although I think at 1.899 the brass is 0.005 shorter than I would prefer unless I was going to neck size my brass.
    It actually could have been much worse.

    Remember, a bit of extra pressure or a little less pressure on the caliper can change a reading by 0.001 in the blink of an eye.
    A bit of extra pressure on the trimmer and remove a few extra thousandths pretty quickly, only once the brass is trimmed, there are no 'do overs'.

  6. #31
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    Dyslexia and reloading do not go...,tape should read 1.900 and 1.901

  7. #32
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    Having the vast majority of your brass within 0.001 is really good.
    Your trimmer is consistent.
    But the trim length is 0.010 short of SAAMI recommended trim length and is just at the minimum. That would decrease your velocity by about 4 fps and decrease the pressure slightly by about 171 fps with all other things being equal. Letting the brass grow out to 1.920 would increase the velocity by 3+ fps and increase the pressure by about 171 fps.

    Trimming short like that is a good idea if you are finding the cartridge length is increasing with sizing.
    When that happens I adjust my seating depth to compensate and keep the net muzzle velocity the same (more correctly to keep the bullet exit time the same) until the length gets to 0.010 longer than the SAAMI recommendation for the cartridge.

    Being short by 0.010 isn't a big issue, because the brass will grow as you reload, especially if your sizing dies are moving the shoulder back.
    When I used to neck size, I was seeing quite a lot of neck growth - enough to force me to trim some brass about every 4-5 sizings. That, and a .308 that doesn't like to shoot more than one resizing with neck sizing convinced me to full size everything.
    Recently I have been careful with not moving the shoulder during full sizing with my 6.5mm CMs and have been surprised with very little trim length creep.
    Distribution after 4 reloads was still right around 1.910 as a median for 55% of 100 Lapua 65.mm brass with a +/- 0.002 range for the remaining 45% of the brass in almost a perfect normal distribution.
    The new Lapua brass all started out of the box at exactly 1.910.

  8. #33
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    Was just looking things over again and realized my mess up. I was shooting for 1.910. Case we're starting around 1.914 once fired factory loads. I set the trimmer up,for 1.900". I will not scrap brass just yet as CFJ has stated ,mit will grow.

  9. #34
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    You're not the first reloader to trim shorter than you wanted to and you surely won't be the last.

    Think of it as just gaining more resizings without having to trim again.
    With some of my rifles, I purposely trim 0.005 short to minimize having to trim brass. I just let the brass grow to 0.010 longer than SAAMI recommended trim length and then trim the brass.

    Like I said, a bit of judicious seating depth adjustment and you will still be right on your velocity goals or you can just increase the load by about 0.1 grian of powder charge to compensate for the short brass unless you were planning to load right up to PMax.

    Message me when you get ready to load and I'll send you a few loading sheets that let you decide the best options to adjust.

  10. #35
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    I use the same trimmer. I agree it’s not any more “precise”. But it’s quicker/easier in my opinion. As I’ve said, it’s great for someone like me who currently loads only one caliber. But for those with several calibers, would far out cost a standard trimmer.

  11. #36
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    It sure was nice and quick and easy on the wrists. No more cranking the cutter around. I am trying to keep the 6.5cm trimming done on it so I can keep the Hornady trimmer set up for my .270

  12. #37
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    Got 10 prepped. Once fired brass tried to 1.910".
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I reset the trimmer by setting it right to a piece that was 1.919 afer full lenght resize. With the slightest of touch and all by fell I bumped the setting. Luck, who knows, but with just the right touch and pressure you can get it dang accurate. All with pressure and touch.

    So ok. In my quest.
    Last edited by DesertDug; 05-20-2019 at 02:54 PM. Reason: typo

  13. #38
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    Got home and loaded up 10.
    143 eld-x, 4831sc, 42.8, 2.821 oal, cases 1.910, bullet exit 1.361ms at 2688fps.

    First off this is the best powder I have on hand at the moment, and can I say wow on the lenght of these bullet, and how much lenght goes into the case. I was surprised that the bullet base is at or, so close, to the start of the shoulder. Definitely more then the width of caliber, as the standard I have learned. I know, I am late to the game and fan fair of the 6.5cm.

    Here is a pic of the final total weight distribution.
    [IMG]gas stations that sell e85 gas near me[/IMG]

    Just seems like I should be able to get the final weight within 1 gn. Or is this not even a concern. I did not start with sorted cases, just some first fired factory load brass I had. I do have some factory formed unfired brass to use when I start to dial her in.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  14. #39
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    I love shape of the 143 ELD-X and all the 6.5mm Creedmoor bullets.
    How can you complain about a ballistic coefficient of 0.623 for the 143 ELD-X unless you compare it to the 140 grain ELD-M with a BC of 0.646 and the 147 ELD-M with a BC of 0.692.

    Did the factory brass all have the same headstamps?
    If not, that was probably the biggest variable.
    I see you said you didn't weigh the brass before you charged them with powder so you don't know what variation is due to the brass.
    My suspicion is that the brass is probably the biggest contributor to the variation in weight in your result.
    You'll find out what the impact is when you shoot the rounds for the first time, but I don't think it will be as big as you think.
    Besides, you're going to be using these rounds to get used to this rifle stock anyway so you really shouldn't expect perfection from this set of rounds.

    Just a suggestion though,
    If you really are going to go to the trouble of loading for a rifle with a custom, high cost barrel, a very expensive stock and are taking the time to measure everything - a very wise approach I might add - you really need to start with 100 cases of some really good brass, all from the same lot. It will eliminate most of the variations that you can't control.

    I use Lapua because I get more reloads with Lapua than any other brass before the primer pockets wear out, more reloads than with Norma that costs more but is equally good in quality.
    Factory brass never seems to manage more than 8 reloads - usually fewer. Norma brass manages 16.
    Lapua gets me more than 20 reloads - 23 to 25 with the 6.5mm Creedmoor - that's 2,300 to 2,500 rounds with the same 100 brass.
    Some might say that would be enough to wear out a 6.5mm barrel.
    The Lapua brass comes out of the box with exactly the same trim length, all annealed perfectly with drilled primer holes that don't need chamfering, with primer pockets that are just about perfect.
    I just reloaded my 4th reload with new Lapua brass that I bought especially for my new 12 FV 6.5mm rifle, full sizing every time I reload.
    The results of measuring the 100 brass after 5 firings and 4 re-sizings without ever trimming are as follows:
    Length
    1.912 - 9
    1.911 - 15
    1.910 - 38
    1.909 - 24
    1.908 - 7
    1.907 - 7

    That is a slightly skewed normal distribution with no trimming or any need to trim.

    38% of the brass in this lot is still at the SAAMI recommended trim length and 77% is still within +/- 0.001 of the recommended trim length.
    At this rate, with none of the brass close to approaching the 1.920 SAAMI limit for trim length, I may not have to trim any of the brass until the primer pockets wear out, as long as I adjust for any growth in trim length when I load the rounds.
    As you are aware, I adjust the seating depth to accommodate the variation in trim length for each load of 25, but all the brass in each load is normally within +/- 0.001 across the 25 rounds in the load, so that takes variation out of the equation for each load.
    Since I generally use a different bullet and bullet weight for each load, I have to recalculate the seating depth anyway for each load.

  15. #40
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    Great info CFJunkie! These are great times for the lot of us 6.5 fanatics. Our choices in bullets are vast. The ELD’s are certainly a top performer. But I am old school...still prefer my SMK’s-140 & 142gr pills with their “lowly” sub-shy 600BC..LOL! Love your info on the Lapua brass.

  16. #41
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    all current brass is Hornady. I do have some unfired virgin Hornady brass, and do plan on getting some (100 pcs) of Lupa brass with small primer pockets as I proceed with this project.

  17. #42
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    There is nothing wrong with Hornady brass.
    I suggest you try different large rifle primers.
    I tend to favor Federal 210M large rifle primers because I am so anal about accuracy and have measured the results with about 4 different primers and found the 210Ms shoot the best in my .308s by a very small margin.
    But just about any large rifle primer will work very satisfactorily and you may find your rifle has different preferences than mine do.

    If you are concerned about the Hornady brass, measure the trim length and weigh the new brass before you prime them.
    It will allay some of your concerns when you find that they don't vary very much case to case as long as the brass are all from the same lot.
    Different machines can churn out brass with different lengths.

    The Hornady brass will last you a minimum of 12 reloads if you don't constantly flirt with high pressure and will give you a known consistent base for your reloads.
    Unless you shoot over 5600 rounds a year like I do, you can reload for several years with that initial batch of brass with good success.

  18. #43
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    Update on 100 Lapua brass resize for Savage 12 FV 6.5mm. This is the 5th resize and the distribution is now closer to a normal distribution than after the last resize.
    I'll be loading them tomorrow for a shoot on Wednesday morning.

    # Lapua Brass - 5th Resize
    1.914 0
    1.913 2
    1.912 9
    1.911 17
    1.910 35
    1.909 22
    1.908 7
    1.907 6
    1.906 1
    1.905 1
    1.91000 Median
    0.00146 St Dev

    My resizing die settings seem to keep the brass pretty close but there is a slight skew to the short side but not particularly concerning.

    90% of the brass is still within +/- 0.002 of SAAMI recommended trim length.
    98% of the brass is within +/- 0.003
    of SAAMI recommended trim length
    .
    The worst is short
    of SAAMI recommended trim length
    by 0.005.

  19. #44
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    Range report. - small sample sizes
    Bore sighted at 50 yards. Shooting hornady 129 gr American whitetails at avg 2804 of the 5 I measured. Box estimates 2920 fps.
    It took 3 shots to get it on center and put 7 within 1".
    Moved to 100 and groups all shoot within 1" with the factory loads.

    Hand load predicted speed of 2608 fps avg. for 5 shots measured 11 fps slower at 2597 fps. With hi of 2622, lo of 2578, sd17 and es of 44.
    Best 5 shot group
    [IMG][/IMG]

    this is a 5 shot group with the hornady 140 black box speed 2690, shooting avg 2688 for five shoots.
    [IMG]nearest pnb atm[/IMG]

    I am sure in the right hands this would shoot even better, and I will be able to measure my improvements.
    Last edited by DesertDug; 05-20-2019 at 02:59 PM. Reason: typo

  20. #45
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFJunkie View Post

    # Lapua Brass - 5th Resize
    1.914 0
    1.913 2
    1.912 9
    1.911 17
    1.910 35
    1.909 22
    1.908 7
    1.907 6
    1.906 1
    1.905 1
    1.91000 Median
    0.00146 St Dev

    .
    CFJ, Will you adjust charge for each, or bullet seating depth?

  21. #46
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    DeserDug,

    That is a good start with a brand new rifle. You've done your homework and are getting the variations under control.
    The one or two shots that are away from the group are probably either moving in or out on the scope ( best group) or a lapse in trigger control in the second group, but still that is a great improvement.
    Shooting factory loads with less than match grade under 1 inch is an accomplishment.

    I never expect to shoot a new riffle perfectly the first time I have it out at the range.
    It takes me at least one range session to get comfortable with the feel of a new rifle and scope. Sometimes I never do and then I figure that the stock or the scope height doesn't fit my set up and begin to look for adjustments. Other times I love the set up and shoot the new rifle well. It is sort of a crap shoot so I don't expect any miracles and an happy when they happen.

    To answer you question of how to adjust for the trim length:

    I already sorted the first 25 into a set and will consider them 1.911 and load for that. Generally the first two rounds are to get the barrel fouled and warm it up so the rounds will group.
    I set the charge based upon the power and bullet used to get close to 1.360 msec. and adjust seating depth to get exactly on 1.360.

    The second set all fall in the 1.910 length and I'll set the charge based upon a different bullet but probably the same powder and do the same thing.

    The third 25 will be a toss up between 1.910 and 1.909 but I'll probably choose 1.909 and set the charge based upon a different bullet.

    The last one will also be a toss up between 1.908 and 1.907 with a couple of outliers but I'll use 1.908 and set the charge based upon the bullet used.

    Each time I use the seating depth to adjust to exactly a exit time of 1.360.

    There is about a 0.002 difference in seating depth or trim length to make a 0.001 msec. of exit time, so 0.001 trim length isn't as much of a problem as you might think.
    Last edited by CFJunkie; 06-02-2019 at 08:04 AM. Reason: trim length to seating depth and typo

  22. #47
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    So are you not concerned with a "jump to lands" measurement, because it's the exit time that dictates?

  23. #48
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    I have already determined that some bullets like to be seated out further than others.
    I have over 6,000 rounds through 6.5mm Creedmoors with about 10 different bullets, all measured and documented so I have a pretty good database of what works for my rifles and powder-bullet combinations.

    I do begin choosing the charge for each powder-bullet combination based upon the bullet's 'preferred' seating depth. Based upon the trim length variations, I make the adjustment around that depth by making slight adjustments in seating depth.
    The seating depth adjustment rarely is more than 0.008 to 0.010 to tune to the precise exit time once I have chosen the powder charge to get within the exit time range for the preferred seating depth. Most times it is only a few thousandths.

    When I started testing the theory several years ago, I would set up a set of loads with their exit times 0.005 msec. apart so I could document the difference in group size average.
    As you already know, a 0.1 grain change in powder charge causes about 0.005 to 0.006 msec. in exit time depending upon the powder, so it was a convenient method of creating loads.
    Turns out that the increments were pretty small and my shooter variations often masked the differences at those tiny increments.
    I quickly concluded that the differences in exit times really showed obvious results when they were 0.020 msec. or more off the exit time goal and the biggest differences were apparent when the shock wave got closer to the muzzle.

  24. #49
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    DesertDug asked about whether I loaded for jump for this rifle in post #47. I had a good idea of where the various bullets would perform based upon my results with my other two Savage 6.5mm Creedmoor rifles.
    When I bought the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor ‘bargain rifle’ for $320, I didn’t even bother shooting the Sierra 140 gr SMK #1740 bullets because they shot so poorly in my other two rifles and I didn’t bother with Berger’s 140 gr Long Distance #26409 and Hybrid #26414 because they didn’t perform much differently than the 140 gr Berger #26401 Match bullets. I still had 200 of them and didn’t want to spend another $60 a box to buy more of the LD and Hybrids hoping for a miracle.
    For the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor results since inception, I did an analysis of the effects of seating depths for all the groups shot with the 35 in.-lbs. torque settings so the results would not be skewed by the poor performance at 45 in.-lbs.
    The results are shown in O.A.L. measurements because the ogive to tip measurement varies for each bullet type.
    The 130 gr Hornady ELD-M #26177 data was limited by having only one half-box of bullets left when I started data gathering with the 12 FV 6.5mm Creedmoor rifle.
    The column headings - except for the last two columns - are in increments of thousandths away from SAAMI recommended O.A.L. of 1.910.
    Normally I like to keep the jump around 0.015 to 0.020 to minimize the chance of getting the bullet touching the rifling. (The poly tips on the TMKs and ELD-M bullets add to the bullet overall length but the ogive determines the jump.)
    “Avg Diff” is calculated difference in group average at each depth range by the using the average minus the best load average at the seating depth (underlined).
    Group Averages by Bullet by O.A.L. Range - 35 in. Lbs. Torque
    -----------------------------------5-10 11-20 21-30 31-40 41-50 51-60 Avg Diff. Jump for best load avg.
    Hornady ELD-M # 26177 130 - 0.374 - 0.024
    Sierra TMK #7430 --------130 ----------------------------- 0.393 0.341 0.024 0.005
    Berger Match # 26401--- 140 - 0.378 0.386 ----------------------------0.026 0.056
    Hornady ELD-M # 26331 140 - 0.404 0.415 -------------0.401 --------0.008 0.024
    Sierra SMK #1742 -------142 - 0.370 0.379 -------------0.357 --------0.013 0.014
    Hornady ELD-M # 26333 147 - 0.387 0.337 --------------------------- 0.042 0.024

    As you can see, the 130 TMKs like to be seated out so the jump for the best load average was shorter than I normally try to achieve.
    The 140 gr Berger Match bullets are baffling. They seem to shoot better with a longer jump than expected.
    (I even remeasured those bullets to see if I made an error in measuring the bullet depth into the chamber on this rifle. I didn’t.
    Then I checked the best load for that bullet that I shot in my 12 LRP and found that it also had a long jump, so I have concluded that it is the bullet not my measurements.)
    Last edited by CFJunkie; 05-28-2019 at 09:48 AM. Reason: Spacing

  25. #50
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    I was able to measure OG of chamber distance and the load I had shot which was OAL 2.821" measures a jump to lands of 0.048".

    I was thinking this is a large jump. If I want to load some up closer to the lands, say 0.038", 0.028" and 0.018' to lands and I have all my cases already trimmed to 1.190". Can I adjust the load to remain in correct exit time by adjusting the powder weight? Do I add .2 grains of powder for additional 0.010" in OAL?

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