sorry, i have measures competition targets for over 15 years.
no it is not
it is a great group, it is not a 0.00x
Originally Posted by Ted_Feasel
There are 4 through the same hole at little over 100 yards. I spent 4 zeroing the scope then drove 4 through the same hole.. pretty sure that would qualify as 00X... xp trophy 11 action, shilen barrel, houge stock and light spring for accu adjustable from northland shooter supply.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
What would you measure it then, when you flattened it out it would measure anywhere from .308 to .315 diameter... that is a .007 spread.. I'll give you the one that hit a touch low but the main group had .007 in differences... obviously it's a. 308 rifle
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
a i do not have the target
b you cannot measure worth krap on that coated paper
c even in the pic you can clearly see the Hole is not ROUND
d flattening the target distorts the hole.
if you want to believe you shoot 0.00x, go ahead, but in the real world it has happened
TWICE in 40 plus years. neither time was it you.
You said it all in A: , you dont have the target.. pretty much makes all the rest of your ASSUMPTIONS moot.. 3 people measured including army marksmanship Instructor... biggest that was came up with was .315 on the wholes diameter...
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
you cannot shoot groups on a paper that has a coating on it
you cannot measure a group if you flatten the target afterwards.
you cannot ASSume that a 30 cal bullet leaves a 0.308 dia hole in a pc of paper, they do not most of the time
an army marksmanship instructor does not measure groups with the precision required for 0.00..they do not measure groups as part of their job.
you can believe and do what you want,
it is a great group...for the 4 shots.
your picture clearly show a non-round hole visible to the naked eye....it aint 0.00x
please go start your own thread on great groups
Yes you do have that option.
But one option you don't have is deleting the results you will get shooting at 2000 yds with a 300 WM.
But then you can always select what you do and dont post.
Fact is I owned a 300 WM in the late 60s into the early 70s built on a lefty Savage action, long before there were any numbers crunchers on keyboards.
Using the same bullet it might have had about a max 250 yard advantage over my 30/06, "without rechecking my keyboard". lol
So where does the 2000 yd thing now come from?
Can we then also assume that a 30/06 would now be "competitive" at a mile?
As for the world records, no official "long range group records" have been held for even 15 years, let alone almost 40.
you have clearly be asleep at the trigger.
large steps have been made in ballistics since the 70's
just because you are stuck in the past does not mean the rest of the world is.
a 30'06 today can get with in 100 fps of what the original 300 win mag did with a 190.
here are some numbers for you to go crunch if you know how.
230 berger, 2913 fps elevation is 4000 ft super sonic past 2000 yards
quit mixing converstaions. the 15/40 years is a conversation about
ONE HUNDRED YARD GROUPS. WAS .009 FOR OVER 40 YEARS, with in the last 5 years
broken by a 0.007
the current 2000 yd record is 14 plus inches (.7mua) and a score of 47.
where did the 2000 yard thing come from, simple. a group of guys that shoot ik competition wanted
something longer. so we tried 2k and liked it. three classes
just because you cannot FIGURE OUT how do do something, does not mean it cannot be done.
in last years 2k match one of the rifles was 300 wsm, he out shot me with my lowly 300 wm.
I think team global precision hit over 6000 yards. Probably apples and oranges but dang, over 3 miles.. that's fun!!
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Let me clue you in on something if I may.
The figuring out part of shooting long distance was done by those who determined how to set up rifle scopes so that one could accuratly dial a scope to a specific distance. It had nothing at all to do with the cartridges being used or anything else.
Also be aware that prior to "about" the mid 80s there were no scope manufacturers offering rifle scopes having the ability to dial for long distance. Many if not most of the wonderfull scopes we enjoy today didn't even exist in the 80s including Nightforce.
The only scopes made that were suitable for dialing were the target type made by Unertle, Lyman, Fecker, Litchert, and possibly a few other I dont remember. All of those had external micrometer type rear mounts that allowed for dialing. They were all attached to the rifle by way of two small blocks screwed onto the rifle. Problem was that none of that type regardless of the scope brand allowed for accurate dialing as far as 1/8, 1/4, min etc, and fact is most shooters using those scopes didn't even realize that.
They had a book containing the dope needed to get from 50 yds to 100 or 200 or even in some cases to 1000 yds. But move that same scope to another gun and the dope was useless. So that also meant that the many varmit shooters using those scope weren't dialing with them but simply just holding and shooting.
At some point somebody figured out that by placing the mounting blocks at a specific distance apart, you could control the dial to a specific distance for each click. Now im not implying that the micrometer dial itself wasent made with a specific distance in place, but it wasent common knowledge that the scope block spacing was crucial in order for it to happen.
In 1973 I took a new custom Hart#4 sleeved action with a 30" Hart 1"250 straight taper 9 twist .284 barrel to Howard Wolfe for him to build me my first long range benchrest gun using a 300 Wby case necked to 7mm. Hart which was then managed by Walley Hart, who is Bobby Harts father was very upset with me over the cartridge I was planning to use. Their policy was to only chamber for factory cartridges, no wildcats. When I delivered the barreled action to Howard later that same day I told him about the incident at Harts.
He just shook his head, and said you know what, he is clueless about this stuff. Just take a look at how he drilled the action and sleeve for the scope blocks. I frankly didn't know either at that point, so I asked what he meant. He said well you wont be able to have 1/4 minit clicks with the way the holes are drilled, I will have to redrill them. Now that was 1973, and that was Hart Rifles, not just anybody.
The spacing for 1/4 min clicks was 7.25" o c for the scope blocks. I say was, because since the 80s pretty much everybody has moved away from the old external adjusted type scopes, and very few have any knowledge at all about any of what im even talking about.
But the fact remains that it was and still is what made/makes accurate long range shooting possible.
Earl Chronister, who I knew well as a result of his hunting in the same area as me, set a new world record for 10 shots at Williamsport in around 1986 without my rechecking. His group for the 10 shots was in laymans terms 3 and 3/4 inches. He did that using a Hart barreled 30x378 with "250" gr Smks, using a Unertle scope. The current world record for 10 shots in the "heavy gun" class is also held by a Williamsport shooter using a 300 WSM, and is roughly 0ne inch smaller than Earls group.
SO, that means that while I was sleeping all these years lol, the ball has actually been moved forward about one inch since the mid 80s.
And that would include many hundreds of shooters, some of them among the best in the world for that type shooting,
sending probably millions of rounds in the effort to set a new 1000 yd record. Note I said 1000, not 2000.
But then if we send enough hail mary passes down the field, sooner or later somebody will catch one and win a game. lol
Fact is that the first batch of 162 gr Hornady match bullets I bought for that new gun in the early 70s, had a higher BC # than the same ones they make today of that same type. The powder we used in some cartridges during that time frame are also still better for that use than any made since. Admittedly however progress has been made with regard to components, just not all of them as has been implied.
Are we not also seeing higher velocities with 300 Win mags today than we did when all we had was 4350 or 4831?
How long now have we had 7828 for example?
Apperently what we actually have is a steady flow of new people discovering new things, and thinking it is unique to todays time frame.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Well for one thing, there are no leg hgt. adjustments on that bench, but maybe thats ok for just photo ops?
It would also be lighter by using heavy wall aluminum electrical conduit?
What no love for leftys?
As for the gun, let me guess, let me guess, lol, but does the cheek riser go high enough?
Maybe also a sand bag with duct tape? lol
Maybe now that im at least a low level legitimate member again, I can learn to post a few "educational" type pictures.
thanks robinhood.
i had to hog a ton of material out of the stock to fit a bbl that starts at
1.25 and is still over an inch at the end of the stock.
a router first, then an air die grinder,then a wood dowel with coarse sand paper.
it is all apart again, bbl, recoil lug, and bolt head out for nitride finish.
Very nice! I LOVE nitriding, aka Tenifer by Glock and Tufftride & Melonite by some. Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, although nothing new, IS the future of firearm “coatings”. And it’s not even a coating! Which makes it optimal for bores, as there is no material added. Plus, it comes in any color you want....as long as it’s BLACK!
Are you having QPQ done Mike? And the bore as well? I am curious, as I’ve not seen results of bore life increase in the premium barrels of bolt guns. In AR the world, we are seeing a substantial increase in bore life and accuracy over Chrome lining. It’s not even close!
i believe qpq is a brand name for a very similar process.
i am having houston unlimited do my parts.
yes the bore is done. i had the bbl on my mk13 sniper rifle done...it gets more velocity than any
advertised similar combination.
so longer bbl life, i THINK less friction/drag, more velocity all added benefits of a black finish.
QPQ “Quench Polish Quench”, is the method which is most used by purveyors through a particular process, of said. Brand names are Melonite, Tenifer, Nitromet, Tufftride and several others I’ve heard over the years. The three processes used are Salt Bath, Gas & Plasma Nitriding. Houston Unlimited does Salt Bath, which is the original process, first developed in early 1900’s. They’ve been doing Salt Bath Nitriding since the early 80’s! They nitride the barrel inside & out, and use QPQ as normal in their process. The shop has honed a very good service! Great choice! They would definitely be one of my front runners for Nitride services.
What does having a barrel done cost?
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
my price is $165 for the bolt head, the bbl and the recoil lug, plus return shipping,
and 3% for using a credit card.
more than my last bbl but still reasonable.
Wow! That is a great price for quality Nitriding service!
yes i hing ip om a company that said $300 plus.
my first was about 125 delivered
Yup! $300 is vey common for high quality Nitriding. $180 is “good”. $125 for the service I know Houston Unlim. delivers is outstanding! Like I said, they were already on my short list. After hearing that price, they just moved up to #1 on my list!
Have been a an a huge fan of Nitriding for some years now. Every AR I’ve built in the last 5 years(more than a couple) have had their barrels, flash hiders & every part of the gas system Nitrided! On top of that, every single one shot sub moa..
(do not get me started on ars. small group from my ar10 is 0.116 at 100, a TARGET rifle, my ar15's are crap..hanging right at 0.2 at 100 again TARGET rifle.)
i built target ar's for over 20 years
I’m curious Mike, I’m 40yo, and of course haven’t built them as long as you. But I started right about 2005. Now, as I remember that was the infancy in building AR’s & AK’s for non professionals. And people who have only been in the AR game for even 5-10 years don’t know what it was like. There simply wasn’t the plethora of parts suppliers, like today. But what I am curious with, is how did you build any AR during the Clinton AWB?
it was a high capacity MAG ban, not a gun ban.
my first custom reamer was was 4/14/99.
and i built TARGET/competition RIFLES... not pretty dolled up 16"pos's.
never less than 20", some were 24,26 and even 27" from 15 twist to 7 twist.
accuracy was the only qualifier.
everyone has heard of a wylde chamber, bill wylde helped me with my first reamer design.
i lied...
i did build some 18" "3 gun" rifles
Well, it was an AWB, but it had loop holes. This is when the whole PRE & POST ban terminology started being used. But rifles built before 94 were unaffected. That said, you couldn’t find receivers in gun stores like today. And the online plethora of parts was nonexistent until 94-95. I’m always curious when I meet someone who built them prior....as I know I was one of first in many things I was among Spikes Tactical first customers, for instance. I remember when they were just starting...and SO small! So, where did you buy parts? No one ever says...
Im not sure what 16” pos’s are?? I prefer 18” barrels on the ones I build. Of course I went through the whole “wanting a SBR stage!” But I went though it in 2006! So I talk friends out of it now, looking to build one. I can see 24, but 26..& even 27?? Really? Yikes. I’ve seen them actually LOSE velocity going from a 24 to a 26! And the largest increase was I think 30-40fps.. Nah...18 gives the maximum velocity for lightest/easiest handling. I have done quite a few 16” that I certainly would not call pos’s, lol! Not by a long shot!
BTW: good back & forth Mike. AR is still my hands down favorite platform. And I can proudly say I have NEVER bought a manufacturer’s AR....always built, from my first 20” HBAR. Good stuff my friend!
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks