First results with new 12 FV .223

[CFJunkie]

Getting groups from 0.75 to 0.4 in just a few sessions is quite an accomplishment. That's about a 46% improvement and you still think you have more to improve.

Good work, charlie b.
I've have really good results with IMR4166 with the .223 with the heavier bullets and with my .308s.

We all have relapses - for me, most of which are caused by a loss of concentration or getting to confident that I have it all under control.
As soon as I think I have it under control, I get a reminder to get my head back in the game and get to work.

[charlie b]

Getting groups from 0.75 to 0.4 in just a few sessions is quite an accomplishment. That's about a 46% improvement and you still think you have more to improve.

Good work, charlie b.
I've have really good results with IMR4166 with the .223 with the heavier bullets and with my .308s.

We all have relapses - for me, most of which are caused by a loss of concentration or getting to confident that I have it all under control.
As soon as I think I have it under control, I get a reminder to get my head back in the game and get to work.

Thanks, yes I am happy with the results. I still jerk a round more often than I care to think about, especially when it ruins a really nice group.

Relapses. Yep, more often than I'd like, which is how I have improved. I have slowed down a LOT to make sure I am set before pulling the trigger. That and the follow through that I learned years ago, but, forgot about until recently. Concentrate and relax. Easy to say isn't it :)

When I was younger this stuff was all 'easy' for me. Just settle in, sight the rifle and pull the trigger and I'd hit where I wanted. Now days I have to work at it :)

[CFJunkie]

Based upon my data, I am shooting more accurately than I ever have and I turned 75 last month.
I have to be more attentive but I think my concentration on set-up technique and in maintaining good trigger control has been the big difference.
It doesn't have to be easy and it doesn't have to be automatic, but to please me, it has to be accurate.
As long as I can maintain my concentration, I'm hoping I will still maintain my relatively good results.

[charlie b]

Since I am ONLY 66 there is hope for me yet! LOL

[CFJunkie]

charlie b,

Forgive my presuming that I can actually help you with your set up, but I mean well.
You already have said you have concentrated on trigger control and on follow through so you have two of the key issues in your 'accuracy improvement sights'.

Two things, that you also probably already know, that are good indicators of 'shooter induced variations' for me that are associated with set up positioning that still caused me problems with 'shooter induced variations' even after I thought I had my trigger control consistent:

1) Eye position relative to the rear scope objective:
I have found, using a rolled tape ridge to get my eye position consistent, that as little as 1/8 inch of difference in eye relief can move the POI 1/4 inch up, if too close, or down, if too far.
To ensure I am in the same position for each shot, I now set-up a bit back so I just see a black ring around the edge of the scope image, and then move ever so slightly forward until it just goes away.
That gives me confidence that I am in exactly the same eye relief position for every shot.
I also use the black ring to assure me that I am in the center of the optic plane (when the ring is equally spaced around the image) so I know that when I move forward I will probably still be on the optic plane.

2) Rifle butt position in your shoulder notch:
Getting the butt too far toward your shoulder bone out of the natural notch between your neck and the shoulder bone causes recoil to move your shoulder back and move the reticle to the shoulder side of the target after the shot.
If I was in the correct position in the notch of my shoulder, the reticle is on the plane of the POA when the rifle moves back after recoil. The reticle may be slightly higher but it is on the vertical plane of my original POA. That's when I know I was set up correctly.
For me, a right handed shooter, if I had the rifle butt on my shoulder bone, the reticle is to the right by as much as 1 1/2 inches after the rifle returns from recoil, sometimes more, and the bullet POI is slightly too the right by as much as 1/4 to 1/2 inch.
Even though the bullet was out of the barrel in about 1.1 to 1.3 msec. depending on the load, it doesn't take much movement at the barrel tip to move the POI 1/2 inch at 100 yards.

After I get the first two set ups to where I think they are consistent, here is another drill that I use to make sure I am really on my aim point after I have done all of my other set up checks.

3) My Blink Test:
I get the reticle on my POA after all of my set up checks, relax and breathe out, and close my scope eye.
I wait about 2 seconds without moving and open my eye.
If the reticle is still on the POA I know I am on my 'natural point of aim' with my body relaxed and that I am not muscling the rifle.
If the reticle is still on the POA, I squeeze the trigger and usually get a good result.
If the reticle is slightly off the POA (and it still amazes me how often it is off the POA especially if I have adjusted my body to load a mag, for instance), I adjust my lower body, NOT THE RIFLE, in the direction to get the reticle back on the POA, and redo the blink test.
I don't shoot until the reticle remains on the POA after closing and opening my eye.

It is easy to assume you are on your 'natural point of aim' but if you are muscling the rifle, even a bit, you often will pull the reticle off your POA when you pull the trigger and the bullet will be where the reticle was when you opened your eye.

After I have gotten good results for a string of shots, I often get overconfident and don't perform 'the blink test'.
I usually find out pretty quickly that I should have continued to use it.

I hope I haven't offended you by telling you what you already know.

[charlie b]

No offense taken and nice to see some of these details in 'print' for others.

Nice to know we do the same kinds of things. :) I guess I learned a lot of this stuff when I was younger from military shooters. I just got lazy with a lot of things over the years and an unlearning some acquired bad habits. But, most of it, like you mention, has to do with getting set up properly before the shot and not squeezing off a round when not in a good setup. Patience. Not one of the virtues I am blessed with so I have to make an effort to slow down and work everything out. Makes a difference when you get down to the 1/2MOA levels.

[RegionRat]

I took some coaching on Service Rifle from Jim Owens some years back.

He put us though some lessons in prone that amounted to your “close your eyes” to check NPOA.

He then had me literally shoot with my eyes closed to prove his point. I ran a 97 on the slow fire prone from sling with my eyes closed! He signed my target and I still have it. He was (is) an excellent coach.

The advice you gave on the subtleties of accurate shooting were on the money. I have really enjoyed reading your posts.

[charlie b]

Just watched a video of a training course run by a former SF type. He set up with his rifle, took a couple shots, turned his head to look at the class and took a few more shots, all in a fist size group. Reminded me of this drill.

My problem is usually my brain gets in the way of the shot :) Instead of just letting it happen I start to think about it too much, then I rush it. I am learning to back off when I notice it happening so that's kind of a good thing :)

I also broke down and bought some Lapua brass. The last of my Winchester stuff was not holding a primer anymore. Also opened up my third brick of primers for this rifle, so well over 2000rnds through it.

[hardnosestreetcop]

Love my .223 12FV....they are such great shooting guns. Great job!

thaifighter,

Seems like you're loading those 69 grain SMKs really short unless that was a typo in your COAL data.
I have had best results at from 2.280 to 2.300 with the 69 SMKs.
I recommend that you also try some 69 TMKs loaded out at 2.340 to 2.350. The TMKs shoot even better than the SMKs and seem to be even more consistent.

You might even try some 77 SMK and TMKs as well. I didn't think they would be accurate in a 1:0 twist but boy was I wrong.
They shot better than the bullet weights that a 1:9 is supposed to shoot accurately.
I guess I learned a lesson.

Good to see you're getting great results from your 12 FV .223 as well.
The 12 FV series is a tremendous bargain and I know 3 people at our range who have had great results with their 12 FVs as well, so it seems like the norm.
Cabela's specified just the right stuff for Savage to put in their 'built for them' package.

CFJunkie you are so correct the 12 FV .223 are a tremendous bargain, mine is stock from the factory and it’s a tack driver. Thank you for posting all your test data. Putting your data on my to do list.

[wyosam]

I can believe how accurate my recently acquired 12fv 223 is. I was expecting good, but the first group down the tube (shots 3-7, first 2 got it near zero) were about 0.6 moa. I was blown away.


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[wyosam]

I think I found my heavy load- 73gr ELDM, 24.0 gr RL15. 200 yard target. 0.3 grains either way were also quite good. 1.050”. Hard to believe that’s a $400 dollar gun.


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[hamiltonkiler]

I think I found my heavy load- 73gr ELDM, 24.0 gr RL15. 200 yard target. 0.3 grains either way were also quite good. 1.050”. Hard to believe that’s a $400 dollar gun.


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I hate to sound like a repeat recorder but you may find the 77gn smk is your heavy 1-9 twist load that shoots sub MOA all day.
Cheers and good shooting.


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[charlie b]

I wish I had read through this again before stopping by to get some bullets. I was looking for something a bit less expensive than the 77gn SMK's that I like so much.

They did not have the Nosler match bullets, which did well for me so I stumbled onto the Hornady 68gn BTHP. Yep, like CF says, they aren't worth the money. The cheap Hornady 55gn FMJBT shoot just as well as those things. I guess I am going to just go back to the 77SMK's. It is too much fun to shoot little groups at longer ranges to mess around with the less accurate bullets.

[CFJunkie]

charlie b,

Some rifles are very sensitive to the amount of bullet body that is touching the rifling.
I think you will find that the 68 BHTP bullets might be a bit shorter in the body than the 69 SMKs or TMKs.
Then certainly are a lot shorter in the bullet body than your 77 SMK favorites.
Unfortunately, none of the manufacturers provide that measurement so you have to find out after you pay your money and take your chances.

I went back an looked at my data for the 12 FV .223 1:9 twist.
The Nosler CC 69 grain bullets shot 26% better than the Hornady 68s in a relatively small group samples.
The 69 SMKs shot 46% better than the Noslers and 85% better than the Hornady 68s.
Your favorite 77 SMKs shot 10.8% better than the 69 SMKs comparing very large group samples.

I have found that once I find a bullet that works really well, I buy them in bulk and then just buy 100 bullets of potential bullets to experiment. I have rarely found really good replacements using that approach but the Sierra 77 grain SMK and TMK bullets in my 1:9 twist .223 rifles were a pleasant surprise.
Thanks again for putting me onto that possibility and encouraging me to try the 77 grain bullets out, even tough all the experts say they won't stabilize.

Sorry to be out of touch for a while.
My wife of 54 years died of a heart attack in mid-December and it has taken me a while to get interested in shooting and reloading again or even visiting Savageshooters.com to keep in touch.
I've been trying to get out and shoot some to get a break from all the estate executor stuff but the weather hasn't been too cooperative.

[Texas10]

Very sorry for your loss, CFJunkie. That's a long time to be with someone, and losing a life long partner can be especially hard. I pray that you'll find the peace and strength to carry on.

Your 54 years together eclipses the sum total of all three of my marriages. That really had to be something special.

[Robinhood]

Sorry to be out of touch for a while.
My wife of 54 years died of a heart attack in mid-December and it has taken me a while to get interested in shooting and reloading again or even visiting Savageshooters.com to keep in touch.
I've been trying to get out and shoot some to get a break from all the estate executor stuff but the weather hasn't been too cooperative.

Very sorry to hear for your loss bud. Good to see you back on here as you are a valuable contributor. God speed in recovering from your grief.

[charlie b]

Thanks for your reply during this time. I am sorry for your loss. I don't know how I would cope if I lost my wife after 45yrs of being together.

You are welcome about the 77gn SMK's. They put a smile on my face every time I shoot them. I wish I could remember the name of the poster in this forum who recommended them in another thread. It was his posts that got me convinced to try them. I've searched a few times and just can't find it and don't even remember to topic area we were discussing that led to it.

[CFJunkie]

Thought you guys might want to see the long term results for my Powder-Bullet Averages for the 12 FV.

As you can see the 69 and 77 grain bullets are at the top of the list with only 0.024 from the best to the worst average.
I have reported my loads with IMR4166 powder on this and the 110 rifle forum.
I have just started to use N140 powder with this rifle to try it out.
Considering that I have only started shooting again in late January and have been out of practice, the N140 shows a lot of promise.

I admit that once I have shot a few groups (assuming thatI know I did my part) and get lousy results, I generally abandon that bullet.

[hamiltonkiler]

[CFJunkie]

Here is a summary of my most recent results with N140 powder with Sierra 69 SMKs and TMKs and Sierra 77 SMKs and TMKs.



It shows I was a bit out of practice but the average results are surprisingly similar for all the bullets and weights.
The Averages, Medians and Standard Deviations are a bit larger than I would like, but it shows that I had not yet managed to maintain consistency after more than a month layoff.

[hamiltonkiler]

Here is a summary of my most recent results with N140 powder with Sierra 69 SMKs and TMKs and Sierra 77 SMKs and TMKs.



It shows I was a bit out of practice but the average results are surprisingly similar for all the bullets and weights.
The Averages, Medians and Standard Deviations are a bit larger than I would like, but it shows that I had not yet managed to maintain consistency after more than a month layoff.

Great shooting! Any pictures of the gun you would like to share?


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[CFJunkie]

Not much to see.

Just a 12 FV with an Oryx stock.
But there is a temperature strip on the barrel, a Sightron 36X set in Burris Signature Zee Rings.
the picture also shows my standard bench set up.
The rifle is mounted on a Sinclair Gen-3 F-Class bipod and the rear rest is a Protektor bag with a carry handle.
There is a Barrelcool fan in the breach and a Sinclair elbow pad to the far side of the rear bag.

I recently changed to a Leupold 45X scope for this rifle.
I got it at a bargain price from a range buddy who is moving and was reducing the amount of stuff he had to move.
The latest N140 loads were shot with the new Leupold 45X.
Even an increase in magnification can't overcome being out of practice.

[hamiltonkiler]

Not much to see.

Just a 12 FV with an Oryx stock.
But there is a temperature strip on the barrel, a Sightron 36X set in Burris Signature Zee Rings.
the picture also shows my standard bench set up.
The rifle is mounted on a Sinclair Gen-3 F-Class bipod and the rear rest is a Protektor bag with a carry handle.
There is a Barrelcool fan in the breach and a Sinclair elbow pad to the far side of the rear bag.

I recently changed to a Leupold 45X scope for this rifle.
I got it at a bargain price from a range buddy who is moving and was reducing the amount of stuff he had to move.
The latest N140 loads were shot with the new Leupold 45X.
Even an increase in magnification can't overcome being out of practice.

Dang what a beauty!


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[CFJunkie]

From the temperatures at the time the loads were shot in the list in post #70, you can see that the 77 TMK loads were shot first during each of the morning sessions. because the temperature was the coldest.
That may account for why the 77 TMK average is the worst of the lot.
With the lack of practice time, I suspect it took me longer to get my technique together.
Normally, my concentration is the best shooting the first load of the day, but for the first two sessions that seemed to be just the opposite.
For the last session, the 77 TMK average was the best of the day and the second best of all the averages for all three days.
The 77 TMK load was also the first load shot on the third day.
Maybe the practice did do some good, after all.

[TommyD11730]

This thread was a great read. Thank you for your attention to detail and documentation.
With luck I will have my new to me 12 FV (223) at the range tomorrow. Added a 15 yo Bushnell elite 3x9 .
My load will be SMK 69'S on Varget. 24.4, 24.6 and 24.8 grains when loaded just under the Ogive yielded COAL of 2.298, give or take.
Fingers crossed.