Mark 2 TR First Day Out

[Full Chisel]

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqSUc_5iT8mphmUo...hQNBR?e=8CCHAv

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqSUc_5iT8mphmTcs5JPmqLIJMjD

First day out shooting the new Mark 2 TR. Swivel bipod and rear bag. Have Hawke 6-24x44 in Burris signature rings on an EGW 20 MOA rail. Stock torque 15F/15R.

So far my trusty old CCI SV lot M21AZ01 is coming in just under .5" at 50 yards shooting over flags. It did okay at 100yd, but I may have to pull out the Wolf ME stash. The Eley just plain sucked it, so I guess this rifle likes running lower around 1070 fps. It was 45* F, so it may be running more around 1060 fps, but didn't chrono.

All in all really pleased. Taking it and the G out to 200 yd tommorrow.

[Fasteddie01]

Hey there - Pretty good shooting for first time out. Wait'll you get 'used to it', those groups should tighten up even better. Cloverleaf at 50 and under 1.5 at 100 is really well done. With my B22 I'm getting some 50's around 0.3-0.4" but not shooting 100s yet. My best shots come using SKStd+ but SK Basic FlatNose did about as well. Fed Champion 40gSV RNL did under 1/2" occasionally too. I just bought an amazon adjustable Kydex cheek rest to get up to the scope so my hold is consistent. I had a butt-pad with a cheek riser and I had to squash it down to get the bolt out Now I just loosen a couple screws
I like the look of the stock, the grip on yours is more pronounced than the B. The comb is about as low as mine so unless you're using a 'chin hold' you might consider one of the plastic adjustable rests, only $30 or so. Some come with various colours and finishes. I'm putting some suede on mine, to match the suede I put on the Tapco cheek rest on my SKS .
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[Full Chisel]

Yeah it looks like that SKF is working for you. Not sure how many rounds you got down it, but my other Mark II just got better and better for the first brick down it. I like the B stock. I mentioned to someone out here that the lowered shouldering could be the schizzle for off-hand shooting. Would love to get my hands on one to try. Other than the mags, I really have no reason not to.

I was hoping the Eley would do it for me, but it wasn't meant to be. This is my 2nd Mark II and both like running at around 1050-1060 fps for 50 yd shooting. I have one lot of CCI SV that runs low and shoots good out of both. The other lot, which is almost gone, runs 15 fps faster and neither rifle likes it as much. I clocked it yesterday out at 200 and got 1051 fps on the good lot and 1065 fps on the other. I only got about 25 shots of each down, but so far I give a slight edge to the good lot. Surprisingly, at 200, I found that Aguila HV 40 CP shot pretty good. At least as good as the CCI. I'm gonna put some CCI in the cooler this week and head back out to 50 and 100 just to see if I can slow it down more and what results I might get. But, sub 0.5" at 50 out of the box with CCI has me smiling so far. BTW, I did JB bore paste the barrel pretty good before it saw it's first shots.

[Full Chisel]

Thought I would add. Now that I've seen how it does, I've got a Sightron S-TAC 30mm fixing to go on it. Just waiting on the Burris 30mm Sigs to get here Friday. I've got a 20 MOA rail, but with the scope height and 50 yd drop I'm only dialing about 9 MOA down from center to get zeroed. I'm gonna use the 10 moa inserts front and back to add another 20 moa. That will put me dialed down 29 moa - which still has room to spare - and give me something like 60 usable dial up if I need it. Been wanting to go to 300 yd but my other one just doesn't have the headroom in the optics. Saw a guy shooting his CZ 22LR at 300 a few weeks back - offhand mind you - and ringing a 16" plate. Jeez.

[mrnate8]

Hey Chisels,

Long time no chat.

While researching new ammo, I came across this older ammo test on the forum if it helps.

https://www.savageshooters.com/showt...-test-complete


If you don't mind my asking, which Eley did you test? I was eyeing their "target" rounds to start because they seem like a good value compared to "match" ammo. Gonna also test my CCI 36 grain mini mag CPHP-HV next time I visit the range, which I already had on hand to see how they perform versus the Thunderbolt.

Since we last talked, I sanded and polished my bolt and the action is much smoother. Extraction was also weakening (I probably bent it too much troubleshooting safety), so I squeezed back the c-clamp past the .485 standard width and it spins out beautifully.

300 is nuts. Is there enough elevation with at 20 MOA rail plus 10 with the inserts? I'm math stupid.

[Full Chisel]

Hey Nate. Glad you got everything squared away. I had ejection issues too with both, but the c-clip fix and sharpening up the extractor tip fixed most of it. I really need to call Savage and see if they'll send me a extra clip. And I may still need to polish up the chamber some. Funny that CCI is the only ammo giving me any issues.

BTW, I have the same issue you had with the safety engaging, maybe not quite as bad, so at least I know where to look now next time I have it apart. I may take a stone and carefully hit the top edge of that screw.

On the Eley, it was Target and Club. Target runs 1087 fps in my rifles and Club runs 1081 fps. My rifles tend to get accurate at 50 yd when running down around 1060 fps. I'm sure it's a combination of harmonics, [cough] optimum barrel time [cough], and whatever other ghosts are in the machine. I have some Wolf ME which has a ridiculously narrow velocity deviation, and it also runs slower than advertised, so it shoots lights out in the G. But I'm hoarding the last bit I have and haven't run it in the TR. I've gotten some consistent sub .4's with it out of the sporter G at 50, and it shoots well at 100, probably because the velocity is so consistent. As soon as I'm sure this rifle is all buttoned up, I'm gonna run some down it.

As far as the scope, sorry about the quick math, so here's a better explanation. I have 1.7" bore below scope, plus 4.2" ballistics drop at 50 yd, which will cause bullet to impact 11.3 moa low at 50 yd with an optically centered scope. Add in bullet rise from the EGW 20 moa rail cant, and I can actually expect to see the bullet hit 8.7 moa high, again with scope optically centered. So theoretically I dial down 8.7 moa to get zero - in actuality, I had to dial down 9 moa (so this barrel has virtually zero droop or rise). I have a new scope with a measured 72 moa adjustment range. I deem 60 moa to be usable - with 30 below center, 30 above. I've already know I'll have to dial down 9 moa, so technically I should have another 21 moa left to dial down and still be in usable range. So, I set the rear inserts with +10, and the front inserts with -10 for a total of another 20 moa which makes my bullet now hit 20 moa high. Then I dial down that 20 moa and end up at 29 moa down below center on the scope to regain zero at 50. Now for shooting past 50, I can now dial up that 29 from below optical center, plus the 30 I have above center for 59 moa total dial up range. According to my ballistics calc, I only need to dial up 51 moa to get from 50 to 300, so I should be good. Hope that makes sense. And all this assumes my windage is somewhat optically centered, which on this rifle, it's only off by 3 moa. I could rotate those inserts to cancel out that 3 moa, but it's really not worth the hassle, so I'll just dial it out. Real problem is finding some ammo that will meet the challenge. I believe the gent I watched had Midas or Center-X. Anyway, it will be fun to try whatever the outcome. 200 has already been done with CCI and some Aguila HV grouping inside 6", so I'm hopeful.

[jkv45]

Hey Chisels,

Long time no chat.

While researching new ammo, I came across this older ammo test on the forum if it helps.

https://www.savageshooters.com/showt...-test-complete


(SNIP)

Interesting test - thanks.

Looks like it's all at 50 yards.

Anyone find any significant tests out to 100 yards or more with the Mark II?

[mrnate8]

Fascinating!

You updated your tag line! When you mean using technology, does that include the use of a chronograph during your testing to determine actual velocity or are you reading off the box? My in-law's gave me one for Christmas, but trying to get the setup fine-tuned before I start obsessing over velocities and SD. HAHA.

So your findings indicate the MK II barrel prefers the slower velocities at 50 yards?

Once I find some ammo, I'd like to make a dope card. I saw an Ultimate Reloader video last night and they were pinging steel at 425 yards with SK Long Range Match!

https://ultimatereloader.com/2021/10...-to-400-yards/

I guess with the ban now, Wolf ammo is no longer available in US?

[mrnate8]

Looks like SK Long Range Match, RWS Target and Wolf Match Target are worth trying to test at 100, but those were somebody else's results. I'll give them a whirl if I can get my hands on them.

[Full Chisel]

The old tag line was from Iggy and the Stooges', "Search and Destroy". The new tag line is for people who just recite crap without actually knowing what they're talking about.

Chrono all the way. Box numbers are general ballparks. I have never had CCI SV run 1070 for me, and my good lot runs 1050-1060. Do you have a a Comp Electronics or Caldwell type? I have a Comp Elect digital. I built side baffles out of cardboard, looped some wire ties through it to slid rod through, and painted black. I tested against a Lab Radar and we got the same numbers. Without baffles, numbers less consistent. Got a DIY light kit going on soon.

The velocity of your load is [almost] everything. When centerfire load workup is done, at a particular distance, there is always a velocity which correlates to a barrel time, where the harmonics and optimum barrel time meld and you get good groups. Even changing ammo, if the velocities are similar, you'll likely be fairly close in accuracy. 22LR is no different. You just don't get to control things like in CF handloads. My Mark 2s like running around 1050-1060 at 50 yd. At 100 yd, they like something different. There could be a higher velocity and a lower velocity where things meld, so you just gotta test ammo until you find it. But when you find, never forget that velocity.

But something critical to keep in mind is high quality ammo that shoots the exact same velocity everytime, will almost always shoot to the same exact POI. Velocity deviations are what necessitates the tuning at distance. Get a good lot of anything with a low velocity spread, and your chances of tight groups increases consideraby. My Wolf ME runs around 1060 fps, and the velocity SD is only 3 fps in my G. Best of both worlds, excellent groups.

A guy named Varmint Al has some great writeups on harmonics a positive compensation. Another guy named Chris Long came up with optimum barrel time. If you go over to Accurate Shooter, you find the hyper accurate crowd lives and dies by this this stuff.

[mrnate8]

HAHA.

My mother in-law gifted me the Caldwell premium kit chronograph for Xmas. I haven't tried it yet because I'm trying to maximize every ounce of accuracy out of the Mark II before I begin analyzing velocities, ES and SD. I actually recrowned the barrel with a brass round screw head and grinding compound this afternoon to eliminate any tiny burrs from cleaning (don't own a lathe) hoping it improves accuracy. It's also 15 degrees here in PA, but I'm not sure how much of an impact that has on optimal precision.

My original goal was to handload precision rifle 5.56 ammo for my new 18" SPR build (currently troubleshooting undergassing, which is another story), but the pandemic hit and then primers were nowhere to be found. Since I discovered this forum, now I'm beginning to geek out over this stuff. I'm looking forward to mirroring your testing that you outlined above with some test lots of different ammos to see what this barrel likes, starting at 50 yards, then pushing it out.

I'll check out Accurate Shooter. Looks like good stuff. I'm a big fan of Ultimate Reloader on YouTube too.

I might scrounge eBay for a used Manfrotto tripod because I heard the Caldwell one is light duty and we wouldn't want wind to break a new toy out of the box.

[mrnate8]

Hey Nate. Glad you got everything squared away. I had ejection issues too with both, but the c-clip fix and sharpening up the extractor tip fixed most of it. I really need to call Savage and see if they'll send me a extra clip. And I may still need to polish up the chamber some. Funny that CCI is the only ammo giving me any issues.

Here is your clip! I read on other forums that Savage sometimes willingly sends it. I'm going to see how long the clip operates before I put a second one over it:

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-man.../mark-ii-lkfld

[Full Chisel]

HAHA.

It's also 15 degrees here in PA, but I'm not sure how much of an impact that has on optimal precision.

I might scrounge eBay for a used Manfrotto tripod because I heard the Caldwell one is light duty and we wouldn't want wind to break a new toy out of the box.

I've found 22LR ammo to be very temp sensitive. I think the number I measured with CCI SV was like 5-6 fps change for every 10* F. I've had days where I was on range for several hours shooting, and at 3:00, groups were good, at 5:00 they were rocking, and at 6:30 they were starting to open up. Just the temp drop late in the day.

And yes, you'll want a hefty tripod. I've seen the lightweight blow over on windy days. Especially if you baffles on. I use a Slik Master I got off eBay a long time ago.

[mrnate8]

I found a YouTube channel named ASMS TV which conducts several Mark II TR ammo tests.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ASMSTV

[Full Chisel]

Watch that video a couple of times and pay attention to the two flags when he fires. He's shooting those over different wind conditions. I know he's making a video that can't take 20 minutes. When its for real, you watch the flags for a while and identify a consistent or common flag position, then fire only over that condition. Try to get several down once the flags hit that condition if you can. Thats a great video to study for seeing how the flag position correlates to impact. But I believe that ammo shoots better than that.

[jkv45]

I found a YouTube channel named ASMS TV which conducts several Mark II TR ammo tests.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ASMSTV

Thanks.

He does have quite a few videos with the Mark II.

Hadn't seen that channel before.

Are you guys active on rimfire central? Lots of chat about Savage Mark IIs and ammo - https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...splay.php?f=24

[mrnate8]

I agree. Those are unnecessary environmental variables I don't want to mess with if I'm looking for ammo. If I want to learn how to shoot with wind conditions, I would conduct a separate test for that.

[Full Chisel]

Yep. There was one part where he said it was "no wind", and I disagree and so do flags. At 50 yd, 1070 fps, 1 mph crosswind will theoretically move it about 1/8". Most people can't even feel 1 mph.

[mrnate8]

Yep. There was one part where he said it was "no wind", and I disagree and so do flags. At 50 yd, 1070 fps, 1 mph crosswind will theoretically move it about 1/8". Most people can't even feel 1 mph.

Stupid is a disease with a cure?

I appreciate your analytical approach! Hard to "test" when you have more than one variables.

I discovered this channel a while back, but he shoots CZ. Better content!

https://www.youtube.com/c/PursuitofAccuracy/videos

[Full Chisel]

A lot of BS floating around the shooting world. You can waste a lot of time and ammo getting nowhere listening to it. Go hang out with some BR crowd sometime and don't be surprised if they don't debunk half of what you've heard by the end of the day, lol. These guys are maxed out overly analytical, and they have the targets to back up what they say. Just go over to Accurate Shooter or Snipers Hide sometime watch the conversations. A lot of good shooters there.

[Full Chisel]

When you ask a question on AS, you generally get accurate, on topic responses, and don't get some jerks throwing insults. If that makes sense. And they don't take up 20 posts trying to answer something that could be answered in one post by a guy a ballistics app on their phone. I'm gonna be spending more time over there in the future.

[Blue Avenger]

Daughter cheated the boys one day. Gave the boys Rem thunderbolt and loaded her mag with Wolf. 14 and she knew the difference.

[mrnate8]

I like that approach and appreciate the feedback when someone explains the how's and why's behind their theories, findings, and etc. Just like your response earlier.

I registered for Sniper's Hide three days ago because I need help troubleshooting my undergassed AR. I'm running out of variables to eliminate and I'm getting more convinced my gas port hole is too small. I only have a digital caliper and not a pin gauge set. I don't want to cut it either by damaging the barrel rifling either.

I especially like the science behind the ballistics and load development, so the more complex the content, the more intriguing for me. See you there soon!

[Full Chisel]

Gotcha, and good for you. You'll be happy you spent the extra effort. Here's a thought I passed along to a good friend of mine who doesn't like getting too technical, but wants really accurate rifles ... if you put a propellant under a projectile, ignite the propellant, launch the projectile into the air, then try to predict it's path and final resting place, then that is a form of "rocket science", is it not? Then I guess you need to be listening to the rocket scientists if you really, really care where that projectile ends up. Otherwise, don't expect so much, or go pay somebody for a custom rig and ammo. He finally came around and at least starting using the same head stamp brass. Now if I could just get him to measure the case volume, buy the right powder, find out where max charge actually is, shoot proper ladders (or OCW), do proper seating depth testing, and on and on ..........

Enjoy the conversation on 22LR and would love to pick it up. I ditched all the shade tree advice a long time ago, and rely only what I actually see - not what somebody whose never actually done what I've done thinks I should see - or worse, have someone argue with me and tell me I haven't seen what I actually have seen. Anyway, my shooting results got a lot better a lot quicker after moving on from that.

[mrnate8]

I think we're on same page in how to acquire the results for yourself with a lot of A/B testing and striving for repeatability in all facets, whether it's environmental, torque lbs, spin drift, seating depth or etc., you name it, while trying to remain realistic and not too OCD about achieving perfection. Then again, I might be opening a can of worms here. HAHA.

I was only drawn here initially because no forums were able to help diagnose the safety sear!