Thank y’all for letting me in the group I have some questions about my rifle and reloading I bought the new savage 110 tactical 20” barrel 308 love the gun but the only ammo I can find it will group is Barnes 168 so I decided to start reloading I bought 12 pounds of varget and 1000 168 amax and some LC brass well it didn’t take long to figure it does not like LC brass so I have a bunch of fed and hornady brass it shoots pretty good with hornady brass loaded at 43 grains and 2.800 coal but only about one inch groups at 100 what can I do to tighten that up any information will be greatly appreciated
Depending on magazine length, you can seat the bullet out a little further, to have it just a few hundredths of an inch off the lands in the throat.
Play around with different large rifle primers.
Different powders.
Neck size your brass only.
A combo of the few things above.
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Have you tried any other powder besides varget?
I shoot Barnes 175 gr LRX bullets over 45.2 gr of Varget, Lapua brass and Federal GM primers in a 24” 1:10 twist factory Savage barrel. I run the bullet out to the lands and seat it another 2/1000s. It shoots bug holes. Since you said that your rifle liked Barnes bullets, try some Barnes bullets with your Varget and play with seating depths. Be patient and persistent. You’ll find a load that it likes!
Not much information to go on..
Can you give us a rundown of your reloading equipment and your process? How long have you been reloading? How did you arrive at your charge weights? Random or Ladder/OCW?
Can you inform us of your scope brand and model, your stock support on front and rear(bipod(what brand) and bag, bag and bag)? Have you checked everything to be properly torqued?
Any observation you have made, every process you go through, how much experience you have .... it all helps when you ask for help finding accuracy problems.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Originally Posted by scootergisme
Impressive, Do you have any idea of your velocity?
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Too late now, but you should have bought two pounds of six different powders instead of 12 pounds of just one. If your rifle doesn't like Varget you're boned.
Though it is a pretty standard "good" choice for the .308 WIN.
Of anything it is the bullet selection that my rifles have seemed to show the most (or least) preference for. Try some ELD-Match and, if Barnes shoots now, more Barnes.
Try Lapua and Peterson brass as well.
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Last words of Gen. Sedgwik
I've got one Savage .308 Model 10 that like heavier bullets and another that likes lighter bullets.
I have been fooled before by thinking that what others are shooting will work for my next rifle.
Varget should be a good .308 powder but you need to find what charge works best for your rifle.
Lots of people have good results with Hornady Amax bullets so I wouldn't give up on them either.
Based on over 10,000 .308 hand loads down range, I have found that my 5 .308s all like different velocities and bullet weights for their best loads.
By the way, Barnes bullets usually have high Ballistic Coefficients and that might provide a clue.
Barnes bullets are generally on the expensive side of the ledger but they are worth it if they shoot accurately.
I have found good results with Sierra Tipped Match Kings with higher BCs than Sierra SMKs.
When seated out about 2.850 to 2.870, they shoot really well with my two Savage .308 Model 10s both with 24-inch fluted barrels.
One rifle shoots the 155 and 168 TMKs best, the other shoots the 175 and 195 TMKs best.
The TMKs occupy the top 25 loads for each of those two rifles, just with different weights and different velocities.
I would suggest you first look at what is different with the tactical rifle versus rifles that you shoot accurately.
I also have found that it takes me a while to get my set-up position correct with new rifles, especially ones with different stock configurations - standard versus tactical for example.
The scope position on some models, especially the tactical models with long Picatinny rails, force you to mount the scope higher because scopes with large front optics touch the rails and there is very little to no drop in the stock behind the receiver.
Unless the tactical stock has a cheek pad or an adjustable cheek pad, I can't get a consistent cheek weld with a high mounted scope. That ruins any hope of consistent groups until I can get a consistent cheek weld - I either add cheek pad or adjust the cheek pad on the stock.
I've noticed on this forum that several other shooters have had that problem and some solved it very inventively.
It isn't just the barrel, bullet, seating depth, and the powder charge that makes for consistent group sizes.
The shooter position and set up on a new rifle is a good place to start adjusting.
That’s true I’ve been shooting a savage 12fv it will shoot dime size groups at 100 with 3 different factory loads but I be had it awhile and shot it a lot now I have this tactical 20” fluted barrel that’s lite but it does have a 20moa rail that I hate because my scope is higher off the barrel thann I like scope is a Nikon Prostaff 7 4/16x50 30mm tube mounts are Burris tactical low Harris bipod I think my whole pro is the brass I was loading its once fired bag of top brass so it’s a mixture of LC Pmc and other stuff all my reloading stuff is lee the heavy cast press and the lee ultimate die set but I noticed on the cases that I had to bump the shoulders quite a bit to make my bolt close in my rifle good brass I don’t that might be my problem because I can shoot the same groups with my msr10 and it’s short and lite I don’t know I’m going to test some more loads this morning thanks for your advice
Robinhood, I do not have a chronograph. Hodgdon reloading data says 2690 f/s with 45 grains of Varget. I can get away with a little more powder since I run my bullets out a little longer. I do not see any signs of pressure on the cartridge case. I would guess a little over 2,700 f/s. I stopped at 45.2 grains since it shot so well. I need to buy a chronograph one of these days!
Please answer some of Robinhood's questions about your reloading equipment and technique. Every step of reloading is crucial. Consistency and precision are the keys to reloading. I spend a lot of time on brass prep. I even index the cartridge case through every step of working the brass. I put the "L" of Lapua in the same place in the shell holder, neck trim, etc throughout the entire process. The thought being that any imperfection in your dies or other equipment will be carried consistently throughout the process. When I load the cartridge in the magazine for repeaters or chamber for single shots, I again put the "L" in the same place. Again, consistency. I'm super OCD about reloading, but my groups show it. It's very rewarding to me. We're here to help you. Keep asking questions! Scott (P.S. - I never mix brands of brass and I buy the best brass that I can get for a given cartridge, which is usually Lapua)
Take your best load and try this. You might be surprised. Sometimes the harmonics will change just enough with torque on the action screws to make a very noticeable difference.
https://www.accurateshooter.com/tech...torque-tuning/
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
Great article big honkin jeep! It's perplexing about all of the numerous things that can affect accuracy.
Sometimes the ogive of a bullet makes a big difference too. I have an -06 that I had trouble getting to shoot most any of the long slender match bullets. It shot okay with them just not one hole. I loaded up some 168gr Sierra Game Kings and bingo one hole. This rifle fired it's best 10 shot group of .446 with the Game Kings but I couldn't hardly get it to put 3 of the Match Kings into 3/4" and it didn't like any of the Hornadys I tried.
It liked them jammed so I was neck sizing with a collet die and loading them a little long and letting the bolt fully seat them against the lands on closing. Hard to get more consistent than that.
Also often the primer is overlooked and rifles can be just as finicky about them as they are with bullets. I had a pretty good load for a 12BVSS in 22-250. I ran out of CCI BR2s and primed some of the same load with Winchester WLRs and Federal 210s. The ones primed with Winchester WLRS put 10 shots you could cover with a dime while the others were closer to 3/4-1" My 25-06 sporter did the same thing and it too liked the Winchester primers though several other rifles prefer the CCIs and Federals. Go figure. sometimes better to be lucky than good when it comes to load development. Primers are a fairly inexpensive experiment compared to other components and worth time to try in my experience.
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
Ditto to what big honkin jeep wrote. I had a Model 10 Predator in 260 Rem that I was dead set on shooting Berger 140 gr VLDs. I couldn't get much better than 3/4" at 100 yds. Tried everything that I knew to get the VLDs to group better without any luck. Went to a Barnes 127 gr LRX and bam, once ragged hole. Ogive is a big factor as well. Barnes are expensive, but they shoot very well in all of my rifles!
All good advise
welcome to the forum and to reloading
Old Smokey
Lots of good advice in this thread.
I'll add one more consideration - amount of bullet body touching the rifling. I have two examples that might explain it.
With my .308s, I have one rifle loves bullets that weigh 175 grains or more, even up to 200 grains.
But 180 grain SMKs shoot terrible compared to the other bullets tested.
At first I thought it was ballistic coefficient related, but I finally determined that the 180 SMKs had a much shorter bullet body touching the rifling than all the other heavy bullets.
Actually, the shorter bullet body would also reduce the BC, but BC wasn't the root cause of the inaccuracy in this case because all of the heavy bullets had varied BCs and BC doesn't make much difference at 100 yards.
With .22 Hornets, one rifle would only accurately shoot bullets that had a 0.5 inch bullet body.
Turns out that many .22 Hornets fit that criteria but some of them don't and they shot like it was a scattergun.
I almost forgot about bullet length, and bullet weight, just like what CFJunkie had mentioned.
Savages tend to like the heavier for caliber bullets more, for some reason.
I had an old Savage 110 GXP combo 7mm Rem Mag, that loved 175 gr bullets. It loved, at that time, the old Federal Red Box 175 gr bullets. Would group them at .75 inches or a hair under all day long. And it would shoot the 175gr Winchester XP quite well too.
I think the reason being because they were Spitzer bullets ( long shanks ), and heavier.
You may find that your will adore a traditional Spitzer bullet, and maybe not adore a Boat Tail Spitzer as much.
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Here is some interesting reading on the subject of primers and what effect they have on bullet launch consistency.
https://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/...RL-TR-7479.pdf
https://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/vie...masters_theses
Banning a gun will not solve what is a mental health crisis inflamed by incendiary rhetoric on social and television media. The first amendment in this case is less precious and more likely the causal factor than the second amendment.
Change only one thing at a time. If you have varget use it, obtain a weight and brand of bullets and use them making sure that your rifleing twist is fast enough to stablize the bullet at the fps that you are shooting. Obtain a crono, don't guess. Use only one brand of brass, only one brand of primer. then adjust on one item at a time. Usually the powder weight. Start somewhere in the middle then load shoot 3 groups of 3 rounds at 100 yards then .5 grains less and shoot 3 groups, load .5 grains over the middle load, shoot 3 groups. move the direction which shows a gain. Watch for over pressure. Then work on another adjustment maybe OAL. doing the same as before. It takes time and patients, Sorry I don't think that there is any short cuts.
I would bet if you backed off a hair from your 48 gr charge you would have results more like you are getting with your comercial brass..You may have to experiment with several different combos of powder,and charge weights,as well as fine tuning your seating depths.Just because it shoots factory ammo loaded with the Barnes 168 does not mean you cant develope a load using a different bullet from a different manufacturer..It always pays to have some good old fashion versital powder on hand such as IMR 4064.,or IMR 4350.I have never had a 308 that did not favor 4064.good luck
Hodgdon showed 45gr of Varget, but didn't list the lot or date tested. They also used a Cup & core bullet, not an X.
Pressure "signs" are better than nothing, absolutely; they just aren't any better than that.
In all my pressure testing in the 308 and Creedmoor, you tend to not see "signs" until you are North of 70,000psi.
Here is a great example: this load is taken directly from the middle of the load range from Hornady #9, the only difference is a swap to Deep Curls(not a standard Cup&Core).
There was ZERO: difference in recoil, ejection effort, appearance of the brass or primer, and scary enough, the velocity was slightly lower.... Now look at the pressure and burning curve. That's called a secondary ignition, and it's what makes shrapnel out of barrels.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Not familiar with the Deep Curls, Darkker, are they a monolithic?
I think this is the first pressure trace of a SEE event that I have ever looked at, and would love to hear your educated and experienced opinion regarding the factors that might have led to the event. Did the bullet outrun the pressure wave for some reason, moly coated perhaps?
Inquiring minds would like to know.
Banning a gun will not solve what is a mental health crisis inflamed by incendiary rhetoric on social and television media. The first amendment in this case is less precious and more likely the causal factor than the second amendment.
I have a 30-06 and shoot the 168 Barnes TTSX. I use H4350 and seat the bullet @ .05 off the lands. Barnes bullets like a little more jump then others. Just something to try for seating depth.
No, not monolithic. They just have a different construction from classic bullets. I'm suddenly at a loss is those are the hybrid plated animals, or use a different density core lead; either way they generate different pressures and shouldn't be used with load data for classic bullets.
I've got a few traces where we've caught some SEE's. Never had the.... Guts.. to take it as far as Charlie Sisk. Between my own testing, Charlie's work, and a friend who used to work at one of the arsenals; the presumption is that the bullet out-paces the expanding gas for one reason or another. Then either stops or slows enough for the powder to build enough pressure to re-ignite properly/pressure wave to catch up. When it slams into the base of the bullet you get a massive localized pressure shock; and one of a few things happen:
1) you get lucky and no damage
2) you "ring" the barrel as localized plastic deformation happens.
3) you blow the barrel off at the site of plastic deformation (what Charlie got good at doing).
So X bullets start off as dead-soft copper, then get heat treated to "toughen" them up. This is why they tend to have a higher velocity requirement, and due to the "sticky" nature of them, now have relief groves cut in them. This friction difference will also different pressures(as does the Deep Curl).
As far as creating the SEE, there are a few classic ways.
1) use heavy bullets with the wrong powder speed.
Powders aren't a fixed linearly burning thing, and if you get carried away, you can slow proper combustion rates as you (for explaining) create a vacuum.
2) Use a progressive powder outside it's happy pressure window. In the Creedmoor RL-17 is progressive burning, and Superformance is extremely so. Those without velocity disease really have a true gift in that powder. You can run 10-15,000 psi off SAAMI max, and only give-up 50-75fps from max pressure loads. But when taken outside of it's pressure range, gets wild quickly.
3) usual suspect cartridges.
The 243 & 7mm Rem mag are very well known in the industry to have random unexplained pressure excursions, which get aggravated by heavy bullets and slow powders.
Cheers
Last edited by darkker; 03-08-2019 at 02:20 PM. Reason: spelling
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
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