Reply With QuoteI am pretty sure you have to press the bolt release before the trigger is pulled
I removed the bolt to clean barrel as usual. I have done this many times. This time when I pull trigger and depress the safety to reinsert the bolt the safety will not depress to allow bolt to be inserted. Does anyone have any ideas?
Sorry. Somehow the tang safety was pushed to safe. I never use it so I was unaware of it being engaged.
The gun is stock 260 Savage LRP. I have read some people clean after every session others say just pull a bore snake through and keep shooting until accuracy degrades. I have been cleaning after each session removing carbon first then copper. I have tried berger vld, berger hybrid, SMKs and Hornady all 140 grains. I use a lead sled to take myself out of the group size. I have got some 1/2 moa groups but it is not consistent opening up at times to near 1 moa. I am loading 140 berger hunter elite (hybrids) at 0.015 off the lands using H4831sc.
I am wondering if I have a copper fouling problem I cant see? What kind of groups are typical for this gun? I also shoot a Savage 22-250 with a Shilen barrel and get in the 0.2's and it has the old Savage trigger. I have a 30-30 Encore that shoots 0.65 moa Just cant figure why the LRP is not consistently under 0.5 moa seeing it costs more than most Savage rifles. I know some of you will say it's obvious-put a Shilen on all your savages!
Last edited by rmkey; 12-19-2018 at 06:51 PM. Reason: resolved first issue
I am pretty sure you have to press the bolt release before the trigger is pulled
Stop cleaning so much. How are you measuring your loads powder wise?
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
My brother used 130 ish grain bullets when he had a LRP in 260. I think it is a 1-9 or so. I would try lighter, and like Robinhood said, stop taking out that copper!
I am measuring each load to 0.1 grain on a digital scale that is calibrated. Maybe it is I am cleaning too much. The twist is 1:8 and yes I have tried 120 gr SMK with the same results. The reason I am paranoid is that I ordered a custom 6.5 BRM, basically a 30-30 in 6.5mm from EABCO. I shot it but it never shot well. I kept shooting and cleaning. Then I ordered ammunition from the barrel maker. It only got worse. I sent the barrel back to EABCO. Mr. Brown told me the barrel was severely fouled with copper. I ask how he got it out because I tried everything. He said the usual copper removers were ineffective for some reason and that he scrubbed it out with Bore paste non-embedding cleaner. I since order a custom 17" barrel in 30-30 which consistenly shoots 0.65 MOA and that from a break action! It's not his barrels.
Whatever he did it worked. Ever since I have been cautious of copper fouling. Today I called a local gun dealer (a big one)to see if they had a borescope-no- and the guy finally said try using bore paste diluted with Kroil and nylon brushes! I will let you know when I can.... rain here for several days now. The ironic thing is that my son bought a much cheaper Savage in .308 and I witnessed him getting 0.40 MOA with it. I would think a gun that is purpose built to 14 lbs for the purpose of Long Range Precision would at least do as well. My son was shooting factory match ammo. My ammo is better. I use only Lapua brass H4350 or H43831sc and CCI BR2 primers. I check neck thickness for uniformity as well as primer pockets. I check concentricity and a lot of other things. I measure everything per Glen Zediker book "Handloading for Competition". As I said I am getting .23 moa from my 22-250 Savage/Shilen using winchester brass per the books instruction.
All Im saying is, if I am not copper fouled, then Savage LRP is no better than the cheaper priced Savage models which you could buy and put on a Shilen or other custom barrel for the same price! If I ultimately fail to get consistently < 0.5 moa with the LRP I will have to replace the Savage barrel. Anyone shooting a LRP in 6.5 want to differ?
Before I bought the BVSS I looked at Savage's site for a while. Somewhere in there they specify that their 'target' rifles will do less than 1MOA and the 'standard' rifles will do less than 1.5MOA. They also listed the ammo they use for testing. The .308 target load was Federal GMM with 168gn MK bullets. Don't recall what others were.
Right now my cheap Axis II HB in .223 will outshoot my BVSS. But, the BVSS is getting better as I work on the bore. I think the stainless barrel is just taking a lot longer to get smoothed out.
Every barrel is different and will take a little different process to get better groups. The cheap Axis barrel required no special treatment at all, and cleaning it does not seem to do much. It has never been treated to bore paste and only had copper remover used in it once. The BVSS has needed both. Maybe the stainless barrel is tougher so is taking more to get it smoothed up?
Last, I would not compare the factory barrels to a custom. That Shilen barrel was probably hand lapped to final dimensions, the Savage was not. So it is up to you to do the final 'finishing'. My Axis (carbon steel barrel) took about 200 rounds before it started shooting sub MOA on a regular basis. The BVSS has taken about 300 rounds to get below MOA on a regular basis. It is still not a .5 MOA rifle.
PS there is always the possibility that you have a bad barrel. You can call Savage and ask.
I have removed copper by plugging the muzzle, then stand barrel on the muzzle. Use a turkey baster tube to fill barrel up with windex that has ammonia. Leave over night. Drain and swab/brush. Had to do it twice on a .303 british enfield
I have a 12 LRP in 6.5mm Creedmoor and it is the most accurate rifle I own.
I clean it every time I shoot it (usually between 60 and 100 rounds) with Patch Out cleaner after using their Accelerator.
It takes out the copper very effectively without the problems and restrictions of the more agressive copper cleaners.
I've got more than 3600 rounds down the tube and it is shooting as well as it ever has.
Average 5 round group size for every group measured is 0.363.
Note: My LRP has a HS Precision stock with a higher cheek weld than any other rifle I own.
It took some getting used to and I eventually put slightly higher rings on to get my position comfortable and repeatable.
If your LRP has a different stock than your other rifle, I may be part of the inconsistency - a slight adjustment in position to the scope or in cheek weld can cause inconsistency and really open up groups in an accurate rifle.
I have two Savages in 6.5mm Creedmoor (the other is a 10T-SR) and they both shoot different bullet weights the most accurately.
My 12 LRP seems to like the heavier bullets but that doesn't mean your particular LRP will.
The other likes a lighter range of bullets.
You have to experiment to find out if there is a preference.
I also have two Savages in .308 with the same length barrels and they shoot different bullets weights the most accurately.
One shoots 150 and 155 grain bullets best and the other shoots 175 to 220 grain bullets best.
Just because a previous barrel likes one weight doesn't mean that another barrel will have the same preferences.
Thanks guys. Your knowledge and comments are appreciated and make a lot of sense. Perhaps my barrel isn’t broken in well as I have only a couple hundred rounds through it. I didn’t know Savage specified 1.5 moa for hunting and less than 1 moa for target rifles. That being the case I cannot fault Savage or the rifle. I suppose my next move will be to get some nylon brushes and dilute JB bore paste with Kroil and give it a good scrubbing. Then shoot some more. If I can’t get consistent 0.5 moa I will replace the barrel with a custom in the same caliber when I can afford it. The action and stock are excellent as is the trigger. Before I replace the barrel, as a last resort I may try Tubbs Final Finish bullets. Sadly I have a plain Jane Savage in .308 that I had planed to restock and re-barrel to 6mm br. So many projects and so little money! Still need to learn patience at 64!
Again thanks for your help.
You young whippersnapper! :) I`m 66, lol
I am having a hard time with my cheap Axis. It has about 800rds through it and I dread the day it wears out. I love it, especially now that it has a decent scope and the Boyd`s stock.
The BVSS only has 300rds through it but it keeps getting better. If I had taken more care breaking it in I might be shooting better groups by now.
FWIW, after trying several copper cleaners, I finally got some KG12. That stuff is like magic. I've done the ammonia overnight thing, Sweets, Hoppes, and M-Pro 7. They work ok but takes forever compared to the KG12. The KG12 works as described, ie, apply with swab/brush, let sit for 30 seconds, scrub, patch. Repeat a couple times. When really fouled it took 6 applications to get all the copper out.
Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk
I am glad to see that they changed the twist rate of the new 260 LRP to 1-8.
I still think that the best thing to do in your case is to try to try to not clean copper from the barrel for a couple hundred rounds, just to see if it gets more consistent in that time. My LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor was accurate from the get go, but it got better and better until I hit 100 rounds, and I never have even yet (with 500 rounds through the barrel) cleaned the copper. I do run a patch with Hoppes #9 through it for winter storage.
Something about this makes me think there might be some crown damage that is throwing some shots ever so slightly.
I will look up KG12 and include it in my efforts. Thanks
QUOTE=charlie b;444707]You young whippersnapper! :) I`m 66, lol
I am having a hard time with my cheap Axis. It has about 800rds through it and I dread the day it wears out. I love it, especially now that it has a decent scope and the Boyd`s stock.
The BVSS only has 300rds through it but it keeps getting better. If I had taken more care breaking it in I might be shooting better groups by now.
FWIW, after trying several copper cleaners, I finally got some KG12. That stuff is like magic. I've done the ammonia overnight thing, Sweets, Hoppes, and M-Pro 7. They work ok but takes forever compared to the KG12. The KG12 works as described, ie, apply with swab/brush, let sit for 30 seconds, scrub, patch. Repeat a couple times. When really fouled it took 6 applications to get all the copper out.
Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
There is no damage to the crown. What kind of groups (moa) are you getting shooting without cleaning?
Originally Posted by want2ride
I am under 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups with my LRP.
Your Savage 260 should shoot better than that. I suspect your load combination is not quite what the rifle prefers rather than a cleaning issue.
IME the use of a lead sled will not provide an adequate platform for testing I would use a good front rest and rear bag allowing recoil management.
Have you performed a powder ladder test followed by a seating test? In addition a Tangent ogive bullet such as Sierras are much easier to tune than hybrid.
addendum- if you do feel the need for cleaning I have excellent results using Bore Tech eliminator and C-4 Carbon remover
Stop cleaning the barrel, it will shoot better. It will tell you when you need to clean it again.
I second the Bore Tech Eliminator! Best solvent I have found!
I think I am going to do less cleaning of my BVSS as well.
I agree. Yes I ran the powder ladder with H4831sc and found best groups about 1/2 grain below Max in the manual. I did the seating with bullet at .010, .015,025 and .030 and it seemed .015 was best off the lands. This was with Berger 140 VLD. Then I moved to Berger VLD Hybrid, also SMK and Hornady all 140 grain. These are the best bullets I can get so I dont think it is the bullets. The seating test was only with the VLD. The others being tangent I just kept the depth at .015 jump. I have never tried seating into or to the lands. My supply of 4831 was exhausted having used it to develop a 22-250 load with 77 grain SMK and Sirocco 75's. Anyway I understand that supposedly H4350 is the powder of choice for competition shooters in the Rem 260 so that is what I am working with. Problem there is that the load manuals are so different for max H4350. Sierra manual-nothing. Hodgdon lists 39.0-42.0 grains for Nos part bullets. Then Hodgdon recommends 41.5 to 44.5 for SMK 142 grains! Berger recommends a max of 40.8 grains for their 140's! I have read where competition shooters use more than 43 grains. Maybe my view is wrong but when using tangent bullets I dont think they should be seated to the lands? The berger hybrid 140s are what I want to shoot and they claim they are as accurate as their match bullets. To say the least I am a little confused at this point. I suppose the variation in powder charges have to do with the bearing surface of the bullet listed. Maybe I should start over with SMks?
Last edited by rmkey; 12-23-2018 at 03:50 PM. Reason: typos
I perform a 200 yard ladder test with my Bullets on a light jamb, my ladder is one charge in .2 gr increments as my bullet impacts climb the target I can normally identify a flat spot before I reach any pressure signs. I select a charge in between those two.
now onto the 300 yard seating test I fire three shots each of my chosen powder charge,starting at my jamb or -0- increase.005 each set of three shots. I'm not necessarily looking for the smallest group rather the flattest set of three. I now have my initial ( course) or base load. At this point I can test primers side by side to determine if any improvements appear I will note for reference or perhaps make a change. Now I can fine tune my seating to identify how wide my seating window is. Once I have that I can fine tune my powder .1gr at a time preferably at my intended distance " I my case I test at 550 yards as that is the longest range available unless competing.
example- my 6br load
Varget 30.1 gr
Lapua brass
cci br primers
SMK 107 gr bthp
seating .016 jump
results 3 shots under 1 inch at 550
Ladder tests have almost always been something that I waste powder on. Why? I start with loads just under max. This almost always results in the best load for me. I also tend to use the Sierra load data, which is frequently lower than other data. Most of the time even the OAL data from Sierra matches the best loads.
FWIW, the Sierra load data for the .308 is done with a Savage BVSS.
IME
failure to establish an powder charge node and seating depth for each individual rifle will result in sub par accuracy.
I agree, it's just that in almost every case of mine that point has been my starting load.
This is good sound practices and the only way to really know for sure what performance will be over a particular range. As for me I have not been methodical enough just taking a guess here and there. I shoot at home and my range is 100 yards though I could access up to 400 max at home. Since most of my concern is group size at 100 I can see where South Pairie Jim’s method could be adapted. I saved your comment for further reference. I know how to Handload forCompetition now I need to study how to set up to actually shoot! Thanks
Thanks RMKEY
it took me a while to understand the difference between testing and load development, the benefit of developing is being able to identify changes and troubleshoot or self scout as you will. For example- at .010 jump my groups are fairly tight however in a vertical line from 6-12 than at .015 the groups are much tighter but running 4-10 o clock , now at .020 they are dead flat smiley face and .025 begin getting erratic, therefore my seating has to stay .018-.020 if they start going vertical I've lost my seating a bit. I can add a touch of powder to tighten up that flat smiley face group however if I overpower they start going vertical again, so at that point IF I still need to I may hit them with a magnum /hotter primer in place of increased charge.
hope that helps ya shoot Small "
SPJ
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