Hi all,
Experienced shooter and handloader here, but new to the forum. This past May my wife bought me the model 12 LRP in 6.5cm that I've been asking for for several years now. I topped it with a vortex hs-t 6-24 ×50. Initially I shot factory ammo through it, and they shot well for factory loads (1/2 to 3/4 inch average). However, I got this rifle with the intentions of handloading with the understanding that sub .5 moa groups would be very attainable.
Long story short, that has not been the case. Without getting into the specifics of the countless combinations of powder, brass, primer, seating depth etc. that I have tried, let's just say I fired shots #201-210 tonight of "operation load development" and I have accomplished absolutely nothing. I've gone through a pound of h4350 a half pound of rl16 and a half lb of rl17. After all this, I haven't been able to find a load that consistently matches what I can accomplish with factory ammo.
I know that it's impossible to tell someone what load might work in their gun because everyone is different, so I guess what I'm looking for here is to see if perhaps my expectations for this rifle are unrealistic? Is this gun only a .75" gun?
I appreciate any input from you guys! Thanks!
Ben
Yeah, sometimes they just only do so well. I’m not sure what Savage’s accuracy expectations are on the LRP? I think it’s a tad above for what should be a tack driver, but probably within specifications. Possibly something else is your issue. Have you tried torque tuning the action screws?
You could try torquing the action screws. Different primers. Projectiles. You have shot over 300 reloads through the rifle. Maybe anneal the brass. As far as suggestions there is a lot of info missing. Then again you may have a .75 rifle.
I called savage and they told me if average group size is an inch or better with factory ammo, theres nothing they can do. However, I notice some strange markings inside the muzzle. It's almost as if theres bluing that goes inside the muzzle. I see clean shiny barrel and the in a jagged border the last 1/8 inch of the muzzle is black. I've also noticed that the copper tends to build up in these odd markings. I was told by the savage rep that there are tooling marks that are present in all factory barrels... I dont know?
As far as tuning the action screws... I have not. I was trying to find a load that was kind of close and then play with the action screws. Perhaps that's not the correct way to go about it? What's the protocol on this?
Thanks!
Have you shot factory loads at 1/2-3/4 recently. As in alongside your reloads? Your barrel may be fouled out, not fouled enough, or your scope may be crapped out. My vortex HS made it less than 50 rounds before it failed.
I didnt include all the different things I have tried because it would take me all night to type it up. You'll just have to take my word for it that as far as load development goes I kinda know what I'm doing. I have successfully developed loads for a half dozen other rifles. I've never had as hard a time as I have with this rifle. I have a friend who has this exact rifle and he went on a forum, found a load he liked, loaded it up and it's a sub half moa gun all day. I cant get a hand load that's even close.
Anyways... the reason for my post was to see if .75" was acceptable for this rifle, or is there something wrong with the gun... which it seems like you've answered. So thanks for your input!
I'll try tinkering with torque tuning the action screws.
Also in reference to your above post, I had a Precision Carbine that looked like a drain pipe when you looked down it. Chatter marks that almost made it look like they threaded the inside of the barrel. Still held 1/2-3/4 moa with several reloads the first session out
The last group I shot today was with factory loads and it was .642". I periodically shoot a group with factory ammo to make sure my gun isnt broke. I clean to bare steel after every 20 rounds or so. I've tried not cleaning and I've tried cleaning to bare steel after every group. Didnt notice any difference so I just stick with cleaning to bare steel every 20 shots or so...
Hmmmm that’s weird that it would shoot with factory that well but not reloads. How close are you running bullets the the lands in relation to your factory ammo?
I thought so too. When I shot that well with factory ammo, I was chomping at the bit to dial it in with hand loads. I've tried anything from just touching the lands to all the way back as short as the factory ammo. Groups seemed to open up as I got further off the lands.
Having been working up loads for 3 new Savage barrels in the past year the biggest thing I found was throughout load developement process was copper. Two of the three barrels coppered up bad for the first 50-100 rounds. Load tests were often scewed by the coppered up barrels.
Every time I "scrubbed" them out accuracy improved almost right away. A good copper solvent and 40 or more strokes with a stiff nylon brush (sometimes twice).
One barrel a 26 inch 10fcp-sr with 5r rifling was pretty decent did not copper up much after break-in.
The 24 inch 10fp-sr is terrible and after 300 rounds still coppers up after 50 rounds or so.
The third barrel is a 22" off an axis and accuracy drops off pretty fast after 40 or so rounds (only has 200 rnds so far).
All three have shot many groups under .5".
But they are hunting rifles and .6 to .75 average is all I expect, even with hand loads.
Mine shoot ok until they copper up. Seems like they are getting better.
Hope you can figure yours out.
Randy
Did you try the same bullet that your factory ammo is? I run Sierra, Hornady and Berger. Never had an issue with those shooting in any barrel. I have had issues with nosler. (They we’re just a bit picky with seating depth compared to the others)
i have had hornady batches of bullets that were .017” differnce in ogive measurements in a box of 100. They did not shoot well unless I hand sorted the bullets before loading
I run a 260. Have loaded for 3 of them so far.
Lapua Brass
CCI 200 or BR2
sierra 142 smk, 140 Smk or 143 Eldx
H4350 anywhere from 42.5-43.5 grains for any of the above bullets.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...torque-tuning/Originally Posted by Delhiguy91
This might give you an idea to try.
I have duplicated the factory ammo in every way except powder. I called hornady and asked what powder they use and they wouldn't tell me. It looks almost identical to rl16, but I duplicated it exactly with rl16 and got horrible results. I have tried most of my handload with eld-x because #1 I really like this bullet for hunting and #2 that's what my gun shoots well with factory loads. I have also tried a-max and match kings with poor results.
Seems simple enough! Thanks!
For what it’s worth I use H4350 in mine. Works well
If factory ammo shoots that well, I would keep trying.
Try a magnum primer. My model 12 26” 6.5 barrel would shoot .75-1 moa with cci200 primers then I switched to cci250 primers with the same load and it dropped to .3-.4 moa.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hate to say this, but maybe your expectations are a little too high for a mass production factory rifle? The gun shots 1/2-3/4" groups with factory ammo, and that's about the best you can expect from a factory Savage barrel (or most any mass produced rifle for that matter). Sure there's the occasional hum-dinger barrel that makes it out of the factory that will shoot 1/4 MOA consistently, but they're the obscure oddity rather than the norm.
You want better accuracy than that you're going to have to invest in a quality aftermarket barrel, and even that's a crapshoot.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
I actually tried both of those primers (among others). I have since switched to Lapua brass and I'm using cci450 primers with similar results.
I fear that you're right. My expectations were so high because my buddy has the same rifle and shoots sub .5 moa all day with handloads. My brother has a model 12 varmiter in 22-250 that shoots bug holes all day with handloads. So I guess I expected similar results. When my gun shot as well as it does with factory ammo, I expected only better results with handloads and it simply has not been the case. I feel I might just have to settle for .75-1 moa accuracy with handloads...
What bullets are you shooting and have you had anyone else try to shoot a group with your rifle?
How are you testing loads? Are you just trying random charges based on what you saw with factory ammo?
I recommend using the OCW method. Other factor is to not worry about what the contents of the factory ammo is. Look at the velocity.
9 times out of ten my 6.5x47's shoot well with 140 Hybrids at 2780 or 130's at 2900. It's what those bullets like in my chamber for multiple barrels now.
Have you chrono'd the rifle at all? Finding good loads is a lot easier with the proper tools
Last edited by LoneWolf; 09-05-2018 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Saw previous comment
Most of what I have shot has been hornady eld-x bullets. I plan to hunt whitetail long range with this rifle so I really want to make this bullet work. However I have tried a-max and match kings with poor results. I have not had anyone else shoot the rifle, but I'm a more than capable shooter. I've been shooting at a high level for 22 years and was trained by a high level competition shooter (my father) at a young age. You'll just have to take my word for it that I am a competent shooter. I tried the OCW method with both rl16 and h4350 and was unable to find a pattern with h4350. I didnt find a pattern with rl16, but was unable to get consistent groups. I would shoot a bug hole group and come back and shoot an inch group under the exact same conditions. I have also tried to use my chronograph to locate loads that give the lowest std-dev in velocities... I was able to find a pattern using this method aswell but with similar results...
My 6.5 Creedmoor LRP has never had a copper cleaning done to it. 400 rounds through it right now and it is still a 1/2 moa shooter. It was a great shooter right off the bat, but other Savages that I have had (mainly the 10T) needed to get 60 rounds down the barrel without a cleaning to tighten it up. My brother doesn't even work up a load for his competition rifle until he has 120 down the pipe, and that is with an aftermarket barrel.
My best accuracy load is actually amazingly similar to the 140 ELD Match ammo from Hornady in speed (2840 FPS) and accuracy . I use 41.5 Grains of H4350, 140 ELD-M and Winchester primers in Hornady brass.
Just a question, how far do you consider long range hunting? I have seen the 140, 143 and 147's from Hornady all take deer between300 and 400 yards from 6.5 Creedmoors and 6.5x47Lapua. The only difference was the 143 ELD-X had an exit and the 140 ELD-M and 147 ELD-M did not. I do believe that any of them would work dandy out farther, but I have no experience with that.
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