Where can I buy a 338 Lapua bolt head?

[montana_native]

I called Savage and they will not sell to a private party...only an FFL. Any thoughts? Also, what is the difference between the Lapua bolt head and the traditional magnum bolt head?

Thanks.

[Nefarioud]

You can get one from me ...$1800.

JK, the 338 bolt head is a bit bigger than the standard magnum jobbie.

[montana_native]

You can get one from me ...$1800.

JK, the 338 bolt head is a bit bigger than the standard magnum jobbie.

Are they compatable with a standard 110 action?

Thanks.

[Nefarioud]

No sure.

I have both on hand, I'll pull the guns out and see if I note any differences and maybe post some photos.

If you look up an article called "power purchase" about the 110 BA, the savage guy says in there this is the biggest bolt head Savage has ever produced.

[montana_native]

That would be great. Sent you a PM as well.

[cowboyarcher]

Hany here on the forum built one on a standard action. I think his bolt head was a custom job.

Adam

[tammons]

I thought the 338L was unsafe on a 110 action.

[Crankfire Systems]

I thought the 338L was unsafe on a 110 action.

I've heard (read) the same thing several times. But, I have yet to see any supportive evidence to base it on. Best I've seen so far is that the Savage Action "Wasn't sturdy enough". I went with a Remington 700 action, and then found some folks that claimed it wasn't "Safe" for the 338LM. Now both makers offer factory chambered guns in 338LM built on their original footprint actions.

If I am not mistaken, Savage has built factory rifles for all of the Remington RUM series cartridges, and there are more than a few Savage based 338RUMs, 338EDGEs, 338EDGE AIs that have been custom built. All of these chamberings render ballistic performance either very close to, or better than the 338LM. So I wonder how that works???

I would surely like to hear any and all input, with solid factual reasoning, as to what will or won't work and just what the exact differences are/are not present in the 338LM guns, both Savage and Remington.


Thanks
Emory Jones

[tammons]

Bigger diameter case like the 338 LM has more bolt thrust.
That and less meat around the chamber.

I am sure a savage rum action would work converted to a 338 LM but what is the safety factor
of that build ??

It would be below a standard safety factor for a 110 rifle design whatever that is.

You could do some destructive testing to find out exactly where it would fail which I think gun companies are required to do,
but lets just guess at a number and say running it on a Savage 110 action reduces the max failure pressure to 90K instead of 180K
would it be worth it ??

I am sure the savage engineers looked at it and decided the numbers did not work and decided to go no further.

[sha-ul]

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/110BA/ ;D

[montana_native]

About all I hear is the naysayers as well without any empirical data to support it. I found a lengthy thread on longrangehunting.com about it. A metalurgist (I think) had a lot of data that said it SHOULD be more than safe. It was about 6-7 pages of him defending himself against many who said it couldn't be done.

It's become a moot point now anyways. My brother-in-law has opted for the Edge rather than the Lapua in this thing.

Thanks.

[tammons]

About all I hear is the naysayers as well without any empirical data to support it.
Thanks.

The empirical data is not there because it probably does not meet modern fira arm safety standards.
The easy way to get more info is to email or call Savage or SSS and ask why it does not work.

Metallurgist statements and calculations are fine but what safety factor is he using. Does he account for
cast and forging metal defects etc. or is he using optimal strengths in his calculations.

Like I said before it will work, no doubt, but what is the safety factor ??
Nobody knows even the Metallurgist until destructive testing is done which
Savage may have already done.

[efm77]

Savage is building 338 Lapuas on their 110 large shank action (the 110BA) so it must be safe enough. I read an article in American Rifleman about it. They did switch to a bolt head with thicker locking lugs and I think the steel may be thicker for the locking lug recesses in the receiver but they didn't mention any changes to heat treating or anything like that. I would think with the proper bolt head and a large shank action it would be fine but you can buy and handload 338 ultra mag ammo a lot cheaper for the most part and it's ballistics are virtually identical to the 338LM with a smaller diameter case head/rim.

[tammons]

Without seeing engineering drawings and data its impossible to say how much the 110BA is beefed up if any at all.

Maybe Fred at SSS could pipe in.

[sharpshooter]

The 110BA has a thicker bolt head with 9/16" lugs, same as the new center feed WSM's use. They are all built with a large shank receiver. The bottom lug abutment is .050" thicker than a standard 110. All this means is the magazine cut has been moved back by .050". The heat treat is also different. I expressed my concerns to Chris Bezzina, director of engineering, about this and he claimed that they tested it to destruction.
I have built some .338 Lapua based cartridges on standard 110 actions and have noted all the problems that are associated with them. The standard 110 receiver will not handle the pressures generated by the large case because: 1. It is not big enough in diameter to give enough support around the case, 2. The lug area is not large enough to support the amount of bolt thrust. In all cases the lug abutments suffered from lug setback... in other words, the bolt lugs left a "footprint" on the receiver lug abutments. When using a standard shank barrel, the barrel would momentarily swell upon firing, and then snap back to original size, while the brass cartridge case would also swell past it's elastic limit and create a sticky extraction.

The receiver not only has to contain standard pressures to be safe, it also has to contain 30% more to safegaurd against mistakes made while reloading.

If you are serious about a .338 Lapua, it should be built on an action that was designed to handle that cartridge. The only reason shooters want to build a .338 Lapua on a Savage action is they think they can get off cheap. If you can afford to enjoy one, it is worth making a rifle that is designed for it and by no means "questionable".

[efm77]

Thanks Fred for the insight. What you have said makes a lot of sense. I guess the same could be said for the ones built on Rem. 700 actions as well? I think they have similar dimensions except Remington has never made a larger barrel shank.

[Crankfire Systems]

The 110BA has a thicker bolt head with 9/16" lugs, same as the new center feed WSM's use. They are all built with a large shank receiver. The bottom lug abutment is .050" thicker than a standard 110. All this means is the magazine cut has been moved back by .050". The heat treat is also different. I expressed my concerns to Chris Bezzina, director of engineering, about this and he claimed that they tested it to destruction.
I have built some .338 Lapua based cartridges on standard 110 actions and have noted all the problems that are associated with them. The standard 110 receiver will not handle the pressures generated by the large case because: 1. It is not big enough in diameter to give enough support around the case, 2. The lug area is not large enough to support the amount of bolt thrust. In all cases the lug abutments suffered from lug setback... in other words, the bolt lugs left a "footprint" on the receiver lug abutments. When using a standard shank barrel, the barrel would momentarily swell upon firing, and then snap back to original size, while the brass cartridge case would also swell past it's elastic limit and create a sticky extraction.

The receiver not only has to contain standard pressures to be safe, it also has to contain 30% more to safegaurd against mistakes made while reloading.

If you are serious about a .338 Lapua, it should be built on an action that was designed to handle that cartridge. The only reason shooters want to build a .338 Lapua on a Savage action is they think they can get off cheap. If you can afford to enjoy one, it is worth making a rifle that is designed for it and by no means "questionable".

Thank you for all the information!! That is what I had been hoping to see somewhere. Especially useful is the info on the barrel and rec. swelling up and over stretching the brass. Seems that lots of people have had this extraction problem with the 110BA guns, unless they are using the stronger Lapua Brass. Evidently the materials/heat treatment used in the Savages is much inferior to the Remingtons and other brands that do not exhibit these extraction problems. For my .02 worth looks like the upper limit for the Savage is about 300 Win Mag, and anything above that requires Remington or better in Barrel and Receiver.

Thanks,
Emory Jones

[efm77]

Remington better than Savage? I don't think that was the point being made. The Remington's barrel shank is virtually the same size as the Savage with even deeper threads leaving less meat around the chamber until you get to the shoulder of the barrel. I think the 338 Lapua is stretching the limits of the 700 action as well. I doubt it handles it any better than the Savage would. If it's a heat treatment issue that sounds like something was given the wrong treatment by mistake and could be corrected regardless of brand. And 300 win mag isn't the limit for Savage, there are plenty of RUMS on Savage actions that haven't had any troubles. The Lapua round is about too big for either action.

[Captain Eddie]

Question for Sharpshooter - In your opinion, is the 110BA safe? I'm beginning to have doubts because of the "sticky extraction" issue and the fact that Savage only tests with medim pressure ammunition.

[tammons]

Just a general question about the 338L and Rum.
What are you guys doing with these rifles ??

I assume you are shooting 300gr SMKs with a lot of recoil, muzzle blast etc.

For target won't a 7mm 180 gr berger in a 280 or maybe a 7mm/375 ruger
shoot about the same trajectory at long distance ??

I could understand if I was in Iraq picking off bad guys or shooting through vehicles, then yes I would want a
338L or the like, but for just target or hunting something a bit cheaper to shoot with a more manageable
recoil would be my preference.

[Crankfire Systems]

Remington better than Savage? I don't think that was the point being made. The Remington's barrel shank is virtually the same size as the Savage with even deeper threads leaving less meat around the chamber until you get to the shoulder of the barrel. I think the 338 Lapua is stretching the limits of the 700 action as well. I doubt it handles it any better than the Savage would. If it's a heat treatment issue that sounds like something was given the wrong treatment by mistake and could be corrected regardless of brand. And 300 win mag isn't the limit for Savage, there are plenty of RUMS on Savage actions that haven't had any troubles. The Lapua round is about too big for either action.

Thats exactly what I've discovered in researching all this. The Remingtons use the same small diameter barrel shank and the recievers are the same O.D. as the Savages. The bolt lugs on the 700s are .4375" long and the Savage requires .5625" length lugs. The reciever lugs evidently "Setback" from the pressure on the 110s, so the heat treatment was changed. Even the 110BAs are becoming well known for extraction problems. None of this is evident in the many many 338 Lapua rifles based on the Remington actions. The Remingtom MLRs in 338 LM are the same dimensions as they have always been, and no problems apparent with them. With respect to the Standard RUMs, it would appear that they do function accepatably in the Savage platform, but I have serious reservations about any of the souped up RUM Edges, Edge Improved etc. They are all wildcats operating beyond the original pressures etc. and apparently they squeek by in the Savages.
Don't take my comments wrong here. I own 24 Savages and 1 Remington, and I wanted very much to buy a 110BA in 338LM. BUT, I'll have to pass at this point and wait to see if Savage can do better in the future. Until then, I'll just stick to 300Win as the top of the Savage roster, and move on to Remington or better for 338LM and up.

Thanks,
Emory Jones

[tammons]

Good lord.
24 Savage rifles.

[Nefarioud]

The Remingtom MLRs in 338 LM are the same dimensions as they have always been, and no problems apparent with them.

No True, These have a reputation for being less than desirable. A quick look at Snipers Hide will reveal negative comments from current and past owners of the MLR.

The trouble with trying to do .338LM "cheaply" is the same as trying to do 50 BMG "cheaply" it brings about a lot of design compromises to save money. With compromise there is a certain amount of risk of failure.

I have a 110 BA so far no Heavy bolt lift (there seems to be a head space issue with some of the rifles). I bought it to experiment with. I think a Major issue with .338LM is the lack of general knowledge on reloading the cartridge, particularly in the 110BA. If you want to know anything about .308, .223, or any of a plethora of other cartridges the data is easy to come by. .338 is expensive to shoot even at a component level so the knowledge base is smaller and fewer people have sussed out the details. Savage did a good thing by making the rifles more accessible; they've given a lot more people the opportunity to research potential loads and gain experience with the .338LM in a store bought package. In my opinion, given enough time, things will get sorted and the 110BA will prove to be a fantastic long range tool.

In response to the question about the 7mm: 7mm's are awesome. You'd need to shoot a 110BA side by side with a 7mm to determine if the recoil and muzzle blast is significantly more. I've done it. The .338 in this particular package is not the raging beast it may be in other packages. My 300WM is a LOT less pleasant to shoot than the 338, using the same barrel length and muzzle brake as the 110BA (albeit in a little lighter package).

I spent 20 years roadracing motorcycles and experienced all of the expensive trials and tribulations associated with trying to figure out what works and what doesn't, dealing with the realities of compromise and discovering the limitations of machinery built to a price point. I dig to 110BA and have no desire to spend $5500 to acquire a Tac-338 or spend the same $1700 to deal with the AR-30 and the problems associated with that. I'm also of the opinion that the Finn's don't need the money nearly as bad as the US companies at this time. Savage has always treated me right so they'll continue to get my money.......Now where is the 50?

[efm77]

I would think that if they go to a different heat treatment process it would do fine. The Remington barrel shank is the same as the Savage small shank and has deeper threads so the chamber walls are thinner than the Savage would be. Thanks for the info guys, I'm no metallurgist.

[efm77]

I somehow cut my last post off. I haven't heard of any of the Remingtons blowing up although it's probably pushing the limits of that action as well. As I said, I'm no metallurgist but I would think that since the Savage is built using the large shank, if they got the heat treatment corrected, it would probably be a better platform than the Remington. However, it would probably be best to just enlarge the 110 receiver/bolt heat all together to make it large enough for the Lapua and that would solve the problems.