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Thread: 10" Gong from 857 Yards.... Tips, tricks, suggestions?

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    10" Gong from 857 Yards.... Tips, tricks, suggestions?


    Hi Guys,

    So, I took my .260 out this weekend and setup my 10" gong @ 857 Yards. Decided to shoot out of the Bed of my truck as I had some old rock mounds that were blocking my view of my target. Fired 14 rounds total and if the gong was a living, breathing critter, I'd have given it a heart attack from scaring it to death. I didn't get a hit this time, but I was dang close (I know horseshoes and hand grenades)...

    Looking for any tips or suggestions from you long range guys out there as to what I should be looking to change in my setup. I'm pretty sure I need to get out of the truck bed and down to the ground, but anything other suggestions you might have I'd like to hear.

    I also was having a bit of a problem getting my rear bag steady and with enough elevation to keep my crosshairs on target (I'm figuring this to be the biggest issue?) but this was only my first attempt at anything over 450 yards, so I'm not sure if I'm missing something that you veteran shooters might be willing to share??

    Thanks,

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    Group size at 450?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evlshnngns View Post
    Group size at 450?
    Just over an inch spread. 2 shots 2 hits 12 mph winds (cold bore)... 1/4 MOA roughly.

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    I don’t have a ton of experience.

    What I do with a load or setup I’m just starting with is verify at 300 to make sure my come up/wind from Strelock / MD Ballistics is right and dialed in. If I go past that to start with, I usually waste a lot of ammo. Then I go to 600, dial up again and verify. If that goes well then I’m happy to stretch it out. If I find that my scope is tracking correctly/BC number for the load is right I can then start at a longer range the next time out.

    Hope that makes sense. It’s really fun to ring steel that far away.

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    Well recently Lonewolf made a comment on the thread about action truing that was spot on in my opinion.
    To summarize, his comment would add up to ( learn how to do it,) and that dosent always mean shooting smaller groups.
    Even 1moa accuracy is good enough to hit that plate (without wind issues), pretty consistently.
    Id bet that every shooter on this site could do that with the right setup.
    The right setup wont be laying on the ground or in a pickup bed using a bipod at those type distances.
    Ok for Lonewolf, or others who have worked hard at it, but not for average Joe occaisional shooter.
    My advice would be to change your shooting setup if you want faster easier results.

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    If your rear bag is too small and requires too much tension to get steady then you may need one that is both larger and stiffer. One of my favorites for a long time was a simple old pair of boot socks with a bag of rice in them. I now use a Reasor Precision Game changer bag pretty much universally regardless of where it is supporting the rifle. Shooting out of a truck bed is not the problem. Getting steady (even in the prone) can sometimes be tough. Correct bipod height and rear bag combo play into this equation. Were you missing consistently? high/low or left right? If you were all over then it is most likely due to the shooting position you built. Figure out to get rid of the wobble and you will find the target gets easier to hit/spot misses, and adjust accordingly.

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    Thanks LW!!

    I was having a very difficult time getting my rifle setup so my natural POA was on the target, but as I mentioned it just wasn't working that day, as it was the first time I'd even been to the shooting site. It was "a first run" and a kind of discovery trip figuring out what works and what won't. I never really felt relaxed because of having to manipulate the rear bag constantly (used sweatshirt under my bag to raise elevation enough, but then it would wobble left or right when I shot, and I also felt like I couldn't keep my reticle as still as I normally do... Probably because I was not relaxed from having to manipulate my POA. Out of the 14 shots, most of them were just left of target with one or 2 being right of target, but that was wind gusts and a bad trigger pull. My elevation was pretty good although not perfect as I never got on plate at 857 yards. I have trued my app at 450 yards though. I was shooting across a canyon and the wind was doing really funky things in the draws/ridges... Quite different then the consistent wind in the PD fields...

    Even though I wasn't successful this time, I was still pretty happy with how I shot given that I'd never shot past 450-500 yards before, and with all the things discussed above that were working against me, I still scared the thing to death... I always appreciate your input/suggestions.

    Thanks Again,

    SRS

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    Some people make long range shooting sound like this big complicated event... (Yes I shoot thousands of rounds a year and normally go through a barrel or 2), but it's all fundamentals. Using the right gear to get stable and applying the fundamentals. If you are not stable you can't be precise. Dry fire, rebuild the position, and practice it so you learn what "right" is.

    Couple of my buddies hitting on the fundamentals of prone. They are putting together a solid series if you care to check them out.

    https://youtu.be/m_YGOUghmZY

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    LW,

    Your Link is just black space... can you repost it perhaps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SageRat Shooter View Post
    LW,

    Your Link is just black space... can you repost it perhaps?
    I edited it with just the link since it doesn't seem to want to drop the video in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SageRat Shooter View Post
    So, I took my .260 out this weekend and setup my 10" gong @ 857 Yards. Decided to shoot out of the Bed of my truck as I had some old rock mounds that were blocking my view of my target.
    Back up the truck 400 yards. ;-)

    Shoot at a larger target face to establish the center of your group at that range. Then adjust your scope. Then: practice, practice, practice.

    It is a combination of natural talent, acquired skill, equipment choice and load development. Work on #2 & #4 because you're born with or without #1 and you already have #3.
    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Last words of Gen. Sedgwik

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumpkiller View Post
    Back up the truck 400 yards. ;-)

    Shoot at a larger target face to establish the center of your group at that range. Then adjust your scope. Then: practice, practice, practice.

    It is a combination of natural talent, acquired skill, equipment choice and load development. Work on #2 & #4 because you're born with or without #1 and you already have #3.
    The only natural talent involved is eye sight and ability to sit still..... other than that it can all be learned/practiced.

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    Thanks guys,

    You have confirmed for me what I was thinking... Just good to hear it from those who have succeeded before me. I will definitely keep practicing... Thanks for the video with the tips too LW.

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    I qualified the variables. I didn't quantify them. ;-)


    PS - Brilliant choice of caliber. My current favorite (if 1:8" or faster).
    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Last words of Gen. Sedgwik

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumpkiller View Post
    I qualified the variables. I didn't quantify them. ;-)


    PS - Brilliant choice of caliber. My current favorite (if 1:8" or faster).

    It is an 8 twist... I spent 2 years researching which way I wanted to go... 6.5 Creedmoor or .260 Remington.... I was always leaning more towards the .260 because of 260 Rips on youtube... First time I saw him hit a rabbit at 1000 yards had me going..... "You have got to be kidding me!!"

    I just want to be able to do that too....

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    I went with the 6.5x47. All 3 are just as capable as the other when using proper reloading techniques. As long as you shoot a 140 with a good BC between 2700-2850 or a 130 between 2850-2950 you will have no problem accomplishing that with practice. I didn't take enough ammo and was shooting from the ground instead of up in the tower that would have canceled out the mirage better as well as make spotting impacts much easier, also was given the incorrect distance of 2100yds. When the target was at 2122yards. But target was a full size IPSC and I got within an IPSC of it within 5 shots, but needed my ammo for the match the next 2 days of the weekend. Good loads, Good data, and application of the fundamentals. Just keep practicing and learning and if you have a question throw it up like you did today.

    Something you can do to test your reloads is to set up a target between 600-700yds, put a fresh coat of white paint on it, and then put a horizontal "water line" across the center. Use the water line as your vertical hold and a target that's wide enough to cancel out wind if it's a particular windy day. The point of this is to test 2 things, 1. the data your calculator is providing for that distance. 2. The vertical spread being produced by your reloads. Your vertical spread typically correlates to the Standard Deviation (SD) and Extreme Spread (ES) collected by a chronograph (I prefer the Magnetospeed Chrono's). Having good consistent reloads produces lower SD/ES's which correlates to more consistency down range as well as more accurate data produced by the calculator. This is how the serious guys work as it increases the hit ratio of the weapon system and puts all the work on the trigger puller.

    Do you need to get into all that in order to be successful in the beginning.... Nope, but I can tell you once I started tying it all together my hit ratio began increasing dramatically.

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    LW,

    That's just Awesome!! I haven't gotten down the rabbit hole quite that far YET... but I'm sure I'll get there, as the perfectionist in me will want to have a hit every time I pull the trigger... My barrel has gained some speed in the last 100 rounds and now I'm getting in the 2850 FPS ballpark according to my Strelok app when I trued @ 450 yards. When I first got it, I was just barely getting 2750 FPS and I'm shooting the 143 ELD-X bullet (G7=.315 G1=.625)

    Because of the recent gain in MV, I'm actually considering dropping my load back .2 grains or so to get me 2800 FPS... My primers are pretty flat when the temp gets above 51 degrees or so. I was only ever trying to get to the 2800 FPS mark anyway. I'm a little hesitant about it, because the load shoots so well, and I don't want to mess it up... It took me about 200 rounds of load development and testing different powders to find this load...

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    Basic Member Robinhood's Avatar
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    this time of year in these parts mirage and wind is a killer. Flags and back that power back to 16X or play with parallax to focus in front of the target to help read the mirage. depending on the light sometimes it helps me.

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    Wind flags aren't a reality in the terrain type situation where the op was shooting.
    But a spotter, meaning a person watching him shoot and seeing the hits, would have helped him a lot.
    I feel that if the truck was at a poor angle to the target, it was at least part of his problem.
    When using a bipod, i prefer sitting the gun on my bench and aligning it on the target.
    Then without moving the gun, align myself behind it.
    I think a bipod can offer a false sence of security as for proper body angle to the target.
    But reality is that it isn't much different than conventional prone shooting in that regard.
    No muscle effort should be required to align the gun on the target, if the body is at the proper angle behind it.
    This is a major reason why many long range hunters use a bench or other types of rest.
    It isn't better and certainly not more solid than the ground, but movement is easier, and theres also less weeds and brush in your face.
    Frankly standing behind it rather than sitting or just kneeling on the ground is even better when hunting because of it being easier to stay aligned behind the gun, and it also gets you away from the obstacles more.
    I frankly rarely use a bipod when hunting. On my setup the gun never moves for traversing, only up and down via a crank on a fast thread rod supporting the front cradle.
    For traversing, the whole top rotates very smoothly 360 deg if necessary. But since the gun dosent move, the top itself is very small.
    Its just easier to move around behind it in order to stay on the animal if it rapidly moves off to a different location following a shot.
    That's simply not always possible when shooting off the ground.
    But if shooting from ones belly is important to them, then best spend some prep time at the locations with a pick, shovel and brush cutters.
    The new battery powered saws can be handy also, and very quiet.

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    Yobuck,

    You are correct about the truck being at a poor angle as well as not being level... In fact, I was so canted that my crosshairs looked like they leaned over to about 2 o'clock... I trusted my bubble level (telling me I was level, even though it looked canted to the right so badly). I confirmed when I got home that my bubble level was "Correct" by using my plum line. My Pop was spotting for me, but his eye sight at 74 isn't the greatest. I had to use muscle effort to elevate the butt of my rifle to get reticle on target. Created a lot of "bouncing" of my reticle I don't normally have. I had a streamer ribbon tied to my gong stand so I could see wind direction.... I had some wind gusts though and wind would be different angles when it gusted as it shot straight up the canyon wall.
    I plan on taking the shovel and perhaps a pick the next time I go, so I can build my spot the way I want it. I'll get on plate the next time, I'm pretty sure.

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    YB,

    There's long range hunting and there's long range bench rest utilizing animals as the target.... Most of the friends I have who do long range hunting hike in and out. They either find a position they can get prone or they use a tripod like the Really Right Stuff offerings. Then they hike in to the kill and pack it out. I understand you are speaking from your experience and I've never had a problem with that, but you tend to be closed minded when other have more experience shooting in many numerous situations. That's what shooting PRS has taught me, how to make a solid position in most any situation and that's the biggest difference between your experience and mine.

    SR,

    Your current experience level is low, don't worry it will grow. You can work other options like turning the truck around and shooting over the roof. Just lay a shooting mat down if you don't want the bipod to scratch it. I prefer prone over a bench. It's my comfort zone same as YB's comfort zone is obviously a bench. If prone is not the best option in the situation do to not being able to see the target etc. then you will need to adapt like you started to shooting out of the truck. At 6'5" if it is not an 8' bed I have a hard time shooting prone and will use my tripod. However, my tripod probably costs more than most guys Savages on here and I can hold half MOA groups off it. Don't worry about it, just think how you can raise your hit potential. The way you do that is by finding stability and increasing your level of comfort while shooting.

    If you search "Phil PKS" on YouTube I have a bunch of videos from matches shooting in numerous positions. Before I started competed and the first 2yrs or so during I spent my time trying to figure out how the best guys got so many hits. My crosshairs would be wobbling around the target like an offhand standing shot. I thought they were ninja level experts at timing their shots, when in reality their fundamentals of building positions were at such a high level they could actually minimize the "wobble" to a point it would stay inside of the target at hand. As gear has progressed in the sport, targets have continuously gotten smaller and stages range from basic "confidence builder" stages to very tough stages. We shot a stage at the match down at CORE Shooting Solutions in FL that had 5 positions with 3 targets at 3 different distances for positions 1,2,4, and 5. and a different set of 3 targets at a different distance from the rest, but all within 5yds of each other distance wise, but they were spread out about 50yds apart for position 3 with a 2min time limit. The top guys are still cleaning those stages or getting 85-90% on them.

    Don't limit yourself, figure out what works! Try a bench, try the top of the truck, use what you have available and learn to make the position the best it can be for stability.

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    LW,

    Thanks for the vote of confidence and I always appreciate your Kung Fu. Most of my life I've shot off a bench whether it be at the range or in the PD fields. I just recently started shooting prone and found it to be so much more solid to shoot from. Seems like I can hold .5 MOA off the bench, but .25 MOA from prone (Metaphorically) it just feels more solid to me. I also found that I can hold my natural POA by just loading the bipod. At least from 450 yard shots... Seemed like I had no tension in my arm or hand when I made that shot. And my follow through was much better then, as I could keep my target in the reticle and could see when I hit the gong. Not so much with the 857 shots. I also want to use the prone position a lot more, as there are no "benches" in the woods or on the landing one is overlooking when hunting, I want to use what will be available to me so when big Bambi or his Cousin decide to walk out in the open meadow across the canyon, I'll be confident/comfortable enough to make a good shot.

    I'll keep at it... I know I'll get there pretty soon as I was so dang close this time...

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    Well I'm not here to argue, but i will attempt to set things straight, and let others argue over it if they so choose.
    There is a major misconception with regard to long range hunting.
    This has always been true, and it is mainly held by those who have never actually done it or even seen it done.
    But also by those that might have, but only in the particular area they hunt, or maybe for a different species, like varmits.
    Also, very big differences exist between the open plains of some western states, and the rugged mountainous tree covered hills of other states.
    What might be possible at one place, might not be possible at all at another without employing different tactics.
    Improvised shooting positions are fine as in some types of target shooting, because everybody is bound by the same rules, and nothing gets hurt or wounded, except maybe ones pride.
    Those who improve their skill level, reap the rewards for their effort, and that's as it should be in any activity.
    The argument could be made that hunters should do the same as for practice, practice, practice, before they are considered qualified.
    But fact is most don't, and some that claim they do, actually don't either. Fact also is that it really isn't necessary anyway, if they use their head and aren't all bound up by their own ego, by insisting upon doing things in a certain way.
    And by that I'm not implying that good shooting dosent matter at all, because it obviously does, it just boils down to what works for what and how we do it.

    There are actually 2 parts involved to L/R hunting. First part is the hunting or finding part, which also differs from one place to another, again mainly due to terrain.
    And then there is the actual shooting part.
    As for getting them out after they have been shot, there are various ways of doing that, and all require serious effort.

    In the east, there is almost no possibility for any type of a spot and stalk type hunt.
    At least in the areas where most L/R takes place, and again that's largely due to terrain.
    Yet in many places in the west there is, and a great number of hunters do that. Also lots of walking is done there, and stopping at various places along the way to glass. So therefore they might also be forced to use an improvised position when they shoot.
    Also in the east, virtually all L/R hunting is done from a lookout or vista, meaning a fixed location. Often, they are (created), with many being considerable distances from a road. Depending on the location, shooting distances could vary from a few hundred to a thousand or more yards from the same place. Some might have had benches built from gathered flat rocks, wood nailed on a stump, or possibly even a small bench that had been carried in then reassembled and stashed. Some guys even stash their guns and other equipment over night if they plan on returning the next day or maybe even everyday.
    Over the years i have built quite a few portable benches, and I'm still looking for ways to improve upon them. Key things are of coarse weight and stability, but also we incorporate things that help us to stay
    on the animal regardless as to what they might do following a shot.
    I keep at least one in my jeep all the time which weighs in at about 20# for the bench. That bench has been carried to many places quite aways from the vehicle. We also don't mind carrying a 15 or 20# gun to those type places. Also the glasses might weigh 10 to 15# plus a tripod.
    We don't share glasses, each guy has his own carried in a backpack, including kids.
    If we hunted from a different location every day of the 2 week season, we couldn't cover even half of the different locations we have.
    Some we haven't hunted on in years. Some are locations on power lines and natural gas pipe lines of which there are plenty in NC PA. Some can be driven to, and as stated some cant. Some you can, but most guys wont, due to respect for their vehicle.
    We can also hunt right from the front yard of our camp if we so choose, and most of our practice shooting is done there.

    Modern day long range hunting,( meaning dialing scopes,) started right there in that part of the country long before i got involved, and from there it has spread across the country.
    Some don't appreciate being told that, but that dosent change any facts.

    The hunting part, is basicly done in PA in the same manner by every long range hunter who hunts there.
    That would be by using large, and sometimes even extremely large tripod mounted binoculars. Including some reconditioned WW2 very large ones, with 120mm and even larger objective lenses. Something most people have never seen, let alone looked thru and used.
    Bucks in PA need to have at least 3 points on at least one side to be legal, and in some areas of the state its 4 points.
    So for that reason alone, good glasses are a must.
    The vast majority of the glasses used today are made up by using 2 matching spotting scopes in a machined fully adjustable bracket.
    High end scopes like the 80mm Swarovskis and Kowas in pairs are very commonly used.
    Even the very best hand held glasses wont cut it for serious long range glassing sessions unless their on a tripod.
    The glasses are also used for spotting shots for the shooter, and that plays a very important role in keeping the whole thing in order. There really shouldn't be (any) long range hunting done without a spotter, regardless of who or how good the shooter is.
    Its not at all uncommon to watch a deer get hit in a good spot and it not show any sign of being hit. Thats possible with any cartridge, but especially with lighter bullets at the longer distances. Also in a rut situation, the group of deer you've found might be constantly moving about due to being pushed by a buck. A lone shooter could very easily shoot the wrong animal in that situation without even realizing it.
    Its also very possible that a bullet never arrives at the target, due to hitting branches.
    Just some of the things many shooters/hunters never experience.

    Is it possible some of the OPs bullets never arrived when he shot at that plate?
    Whats the mid range trajectory of that cartridge at that distance?
    Where there any trees near the target?
    They are things that only ones having the actual experience of seeing, can make them be appreciated as being possible, and even very likely to happen when hunting.
    Guns actually play a lesser roll than do the glasses. Even a rangefinder, which most think to be of primary importance, is less important than good tripod mounted glasses.

    As for the shooting part, I doubt there is a single person here who dosent shoot from a bench when working up loads.
    And the reason is that's how they can be the most accurate when they shoot.
    Does it then not seem logical to shoot that way at live animals especially at long distances?

    Ive said here before somewhat in jest, that if this were hard, then most of us couldn't do it.
    But like it or not, the fact is that's true.
    Many of the L/R deer killed at our N/C PA camp over a period of more than 45 years, have been taken by young kids or adults with almost zero long range shooting experience.
    But of coarse it can be made to be hard also, if we so choose.

    Those who prefer laying in dirt or mud, on top of rocks, on a foot of snow, and maybe looking thru some brush when they shoot, will get no argument from me if they insist on making it hard on themselves.
    But they can take it to the bank, that if they happen to gut shoot a deer and it takes off running especially in trees, they will not stay on it, meaning keeping it in the scope, and they might not even find it again for a follow up shot before it leaves the area completely.
    And they can pretty much count on the coyotes having it before daybreak.

    Now some might realize that i pulled this post and shortened it as some of it wasent necessary to make my point.
    I actually thought i had done that before posting, but for some reason i hadn't.
    Its still long and for that I'm sorry, but there are things i feel that need to be said on this subject when i see a reason for doing so.

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    Well, I do load dev from the prone and most of my buddies do load dev from the prone. Unless I need to get above the mirage it's always my preference. I shoot just fine from the bench too. The point of my post is there's options and building any position regardless of the platform has the same fundamentals. Afterall, shooting from a bench is just "modified" prone is it not?

    have fun y'all go burn some powder this weekend and hopefully it's dryer for you then it looks like it's going to be for me!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneWolf View Post
    Well, I do load dev from the prone and most of my buddies do load dev from the prone. Unless I need to get above the mirage it's always my preference. I shoot just fine from the bench too. The point of my post is there's options and building any position regardless of the platform has the same fundamentals. Afterall, shooting from a bench is just "modified" prone is it not?

    have fun y'all go burn some powder this weekend and hopefully it's dryer for you then it looks like it's going to be for me!
    Well you would be the exception as for doing that.
    And no doubt you are also an exception as to your ability to shoot in that position, and i mean than in a complimentary term and not of a sarcastic one.
    That said, (YOU) probably wont stay on a deer running thru the woods either from that position.
    And even if you did, you would need to take your eyes off of it while you scrambled to get into the now required reposition for another (accurate shot.) Meanwhile, whats that wounded animal gonna do, stand around and wait for you?
    I mentioned the word misconception, and one of the biggest is that shooting ability trumps everything else.
    And the hard reality is, that it dosent always.
    The reason kids and other beginners do as well as they do is for one simple reason, (they listen).
    I'm not gonna go burn some powder today, but i just might build up enough energy to take the boat and try to catch a few for dinner.
    Its a Friday tradition. lol

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