Receiver threads drilled crooked

**JeepsAndGuns** · 04-10-2018, 06:31 PM

I took a sharpie and colored the face of the receiver and barrel nut, I threaded the barrel into the action without the recoil lug and tightened the nut by hand holding the receiver in one had and the nut in the other. I tightened, then loosened, then did it again and took it back out. Here is what it looks like:

The barrel nut was pretty even all the way around except for one small area. Sorry, but this is about the best picture of it I can get:

So going by the contact pattern, it might could be the face was not trued correctly, which also makes me wonder about the bolt lugs in the receiver if they were faced at the same time as the front of the receiver. It looks like there is better contact on the left than on the right, which in theory, could push the barrel right once torqued.

**mnbogboy2** · 04-10-2018, 08:08 PM

Have seen much worse contact than what your picture shows. But another test would be the similar with the lug in place and just as the nut starts to "squeeze" the lug check all around between the action and lug with a feeler gauge. if there is more gap on the right the action face may very well be your problem. If you are comfortable with "hack true-ing" a wide mill bastard done delicately might get you a lot better looking mate on your "bluing". I've done it a couple of times and it will work if you are careful. There is room to play some but it usually only takes a few even strokes with more pressure on the high areas (but full contact all across the face). I would only recommend this if you were comfortable doing it and as a last resort. The smith that originally trued it should be the one to give his opinion first.

On the other hand getting back to the possible twisted action. No experience with this one but thought about during a restless night last night. A simple test might be to clamp down your action wrench (assuming it is the "Wheeler" style and make up a couple of long (4"-8") rods/studs with 1/4-28 thread (threaded rod would work if you can find it or long bolts). With the rods threaded into the action facing up, the two rods should be parallel (or close to it). If the rear one is tilted towards the bolt handle side of the action there may be some twist that could account for the barrel pointing right. I use to studs like this for bedding actions and I know they are parallel for installing and removing. A twisted action wouldn't allow that. Might be worth a try.

Nickles worth for today and hoping you find the best and easiest solution,
Randy

**Robinhood** · 04-10-2018, 10:01 PM

Since the barrel nut spins against the face of the action as it is made up the "bluEing" does not tell you much. If you want to check for a twisted action it will be very obvious with the naked eye. Remove the barrel and the bolt, Look through the action into a lit wall or something white. The raceway will either be straight or twisted. You will notice it like looking down the side of a board at the lumber yard to check for straightness. You can also lay the barreled action in the stock upside down. Press the action down. If it is the stock, the barrel will hit on the same side. If it is the barrel action interface then it will hit on the left(opposite side).

**RustyShackle** · 04-10-2018, 10:49 PM

Just out of curiosity have you put a square across the front of the receiver and down the length of it? I guess another way to go about it would be to stand the receiver on a good level surface against the edge of a square and rotate it.

Also the stripped reciever on a piece of glass, lay it flat and shine a flashlight at it from the far side. If light penetrates under an edge it will let you know if there’s issue.

I think I also read that you mic’d the recoil lug?

One last random thought, are the threads on the bbl nut concentric with the axis of the bore? That one pic kinda looks like it’s not making good flush contact.

**JeepsAndGuns** · 06-22-2018, 06:01 PM

Well to update this thread, I ended up contacting the gunsmith who did the work and they requested I send the action and the barrel. Here is the response I got from them:

"I have examined your barreled action and found that the receiver is not in question , but the problem lies in the barrel. The threads on the barrel are extremely undersize, causing a misaligned thread joint. Upon measuring, the pitch diameter of the thread is .012” smaller than nominal size. This results in only about 40% thread engagement, which in this case is NOT safe for a barrel fit.
I actually mounted the receiver in my lathe chuck and centered it. With the nut loose, the barrel would tip a 1/4” in any direction at the muzzle. When the nut was tightened, it would stay in the same direction the barrel was pointing, no matter how it was oriented, right,left, up, or down.

While I had it in the lathe, I installed several spare barrels that I had laying around, to find that when the nut was tightened, the barrels centered and ran true to the muzzle.

I spent some time examining the threads on the barrel and it seems the thread form is not quite correct. There seems to be a flat at the root of the thread and none on the crest, just the opposite of what is found on a factory barrel. One thing is for sure, these were never checked with a thread pitch gauge. With a fit this loose, there is very minimal engagement on the threads. Under pressure there is a greater chance of shearing the threads and having a catastrophic failure.....something I would NOT chance.

I would send the barrel back for replacement."

I am glad to know it is not my receiver. But am upset that it is the barrel I waited forever to get (I think it was 6-8 months) and paid a pretty penny for.

So it looks like I will be contacting x-caliber....

**J.Baker** · 06-22-2018, 06:23 PM

Ooooh....so that was YOUR gun. LOL

I just happened to see how sloppy loose that barrel was when screwed into the receiver when I stopped into your gunsmith's shop earlier this week. In fact, I interrupted him while he still had the action chucked up and indexed in the lathe and he couldn't help himself and had to show me just how bad it was as he's never seen barrel threads that out of spec before. We were both curious who made the barrel as it didn't have a makers mark anywhere on it.

**mnbogboy2** · 06-22-2018, 07:02 PM

The barrel maker should do the right thing and make it right. Your action is good
And because a lot of us have never seen barrel threads that loose, we all learned something from this thread (pun intended).
Randy

**celltech** · 06-23-2018, 11:17 AM

Interesting discussion here. I recently received a X-Caliber barrel in .243. When I was installing I noticed it seemed looser than the OEM barrel but didn't think much of it. After getting everything tightened up I mounted the scope and ended up having to crank 6.4 Mils of elevation off center to line it up and thought that seemed bizarre. I shot it yesterday, and while it seemed to shoot ok I was still wondering why I had to adjust the scope so much.

Then I saw this discussion and it made me go pull the barrel off and really start looking at it. While the OD is spot on at 1.055" (the OEM actually comes in at 1.050") the threads are very "sharp" compared to OEM. I tried to take a macro shot of them side by side and have crudely drawn the differences I see between them. I also notice the barrel nut has way more side to side play on the X-Caliber as well.....Sigh, guess I need to get in contact with them as they are making me another barrel right now!

Attachment 4947

**JeepsAndGuns** · 06-23-2018, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by celltech

Interesting discussion here. I recently received a X-Caliber barrel in .243. When I was installing I noticed it seemed looser than the OEM barrel but didn't think much of it. After getting everything tightened up I mounted the scope and ended up having to crank 6.4 Mils of elevation off center to line it up and thought that seemed bizarre. I shot it yesterday, and while it seemed to shoot ok I was still wondering why I had to adjust the scope so much.

Then I saw this discussion and it made me go pull the barrel off and really start looking at it. While the OD is spot on at 1.055" (the OEM actually comes in at 1.050") the threads are very "sharp" compared to OEM. I tried to take a macro shot of them side by side and have crudely drawn the differences I see between them. I also notice the barrel nut has way more side to side play on the X-Caliber as well.....Sigh, guess I need to get in contact with them as they are making me another barrel right now!

Attachment 4947

Wow, so it looks like my barrel is not a isolated event. I wonder if it is possible that all of their savage pre fits have been threaded wrong?
All I have to say is they better not try and say there is nothing wrong as I will be very upset. I emailed them last night with the same quote from the gunsmith. However I am sure they were already gone for the weekend so I doubt I will hear anything till next week. I will update once I hear from them.

**Robinhood** · 06-23-2018, 12:33 PM

Pee Dee is the wire set you buy for thread measuring over wires. There is a specific diameter of wires for each thread pitch. There are three wires for each pitch. Pee Dee holds a very close tolerance. One half of one tenth of a thousands or .00005".

This measuring process is good for the guy making one off barrels from 1 a day to 1 a year or even less often. However, If I am in the barrel business I would make go and no go gauges using the thread wires to make first, a male that was certafiable meaning my mics would be calibrated to better than a .0001" and my measurements met the class of thread tolerances, and then a female using the male to manufacture the female. Make a go and nogo for both male and female. .012 is so far out of tolerances that iron workers would throw it in the trash. If this is happening on multiple occasions from a mass producer of prefit barrels there is a problem. Nothing leaves the shop wrong.

I never had that issue on any of the X-caliber barrels Apache did. I wish he would have remained a small time operation..

**gbflyer** · 06-23-2018, 04:47 PM

Hard to do one-size-fits-every-receiver kind of threading. Their tools wear, the factory tools wear, someone makes a little mistake, etc., and the tolerances stack up. It’s pretty amazing to me that many of them fit as well as they do.

I’ve found those guys to be good, I’d be extremely surprised if they don’t take care of you.

**Robinhood** · 06-24-2018, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by gbflyer

Hard to do one-size-fits-every-receiver kind of threading. Their tools wear, the factory tools wear, someone makes a little mistake, etc., and the tolerances stack up. It’s pretty amazing to me that many of them fit as well as they do.

How are barrel bores tolerences maintained? If you have QC, you are measuring. If you are measuring you predict tool wear. The reality is one gets out the every now and then I will give into that. If you have ever worked in manufacturing you know it happens. You also know that somebody knew it before it left the door.

**gbflyer** · 06-24-2018, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Robinhood

How are barrel bores tolerences maintained? If you have QC, you are measuring. If you are measuring you predict tool wear. The reality is one gets out the every now and then I will give into that. If you have ever worked in manufacturing you know it happens. You also know that somebody knew it before it left the door.

Agree.

Bore tolerance is something they certainly can check and control. The threading the factory did in the receiver is not. I’ve used the Pee Dee wires, gotten the threads textbook 2B after hours of agonizing, and the barrel wouldn’t thread into the receiver. It’s a fine line sizing the tenon to fit every action, going a little undersized at the major diameter is probably normal. From looking at the pic, I’d say they took one too many passes with the threading tool. They get sharp like that when you do. I’ve made that mistake myself. Lose the root diameter and you’re screwed.

I’ve got a factory Savage .338 Win Mag I took off my sons rifle for a .300 Win Mag swap. The factory major measures 1.048, the root is on the money.

Like you say, somebody most likely knew. Again, I’d be surprised if they don’t take care of if right away. They are still building their reputation as a premium barrel maker at a reasonable price. I doubt they want an orphan out there.

**Robinhood** · 06-24-2018, 02:39 PM

I’ve used the Pee Dee wires, gotten the threads textbook 2B after hours of agonizing, and the barrel wouldn’t thread into the receiver. It’s a fine line sizing the tenon to fit every action, going a little undersized at the major diameter is probably normal.

Yep, what I notice single pointing is when you cut the major diameter to size, it will always "grow" on you by rolling up metal at the peak. Combine that with the tooling the Savage factory uses is not a "0" radius like your inserts or ground tooling but more like a "2". Pitch diameter does not lie. But the bottom of the female thread and the tops of your male thread having the different Radii can give you fits. Some sandpaper and a touch of Cratex and it falls right in there. It sounds like you have been there.

**Texas10** · 06-24-2018, 02:42 PM

So, I guess that when I run a cotton cloth over the threads on my new, expensive aftermarket barrel and it comes back "hairy", that's not good?

This thread brings up the very question I had with a recent barrel installation. The peaks (major diameter) of the threads were torn and ragged, instead of flat at the top.

A week ago I removed a barrel by the same maker as the OP's so after reading this I checked the threads under 10X magnification. Flat at the peak and valley. I didn't mic the major dia, but its fit was very good in the receiver. I checked a few new Savage barrels I have and they too were similar in appearance.

Lesson learned. What I thought I knew was correct about threads. I just didn't know why it made a difference in this case. Now I do.

I hope your barrel gets the attention it deserves!

**celltech** · 06-25-2018, 11:37 AM

X-Cal got in touch with me first thing this morning and sent a fedex return label no questions asked. And my thoughts on where I see the issue: "The X-Cal barrel appears to have a major/minor diameters of 1.055/1.020 while the OEM Savage barrel is 1.050/1.030. But the X-Cal barrel has very sharp "V" shaped roots and crests while the Savage's are way more flat/rounded. I think this has led to a difference in the thread angle and causing the slop. But I am no machinist so hopefully your guys can square it away."

I will report back on what they say...

**JeepsAndGuns** · 06-25-2018, 12:23 PM

Just got a email and a call from them. They gave me a fedex label to send it back. he said they will take a look at it and make it right. I told them it is still at the gunsmiths and may take a little bit to get it back. Hopefully I can get the ball rolling quickly.

**celltech** · 07-02-2018, 01:35 PM

So they got my barrel back today and gave me a call. "Everything is cut to spec and is fine...". They said the major/minor measurements are 1.055/1.020 as they should be. I told them I don't disagree with that at all, just their threads are cut with sharp roots and crests. It's the customer service guy that I keep talking to and he does not seem to be very technical....wish I could talk to whomever is actually making them.

So help me out here guys, what do I tell them? Is there a spec/style for having flattened or rounded roots and crests? It almost like the thread angles don't match between the barrel and receiver. And they are just saying they have made hundreds of these, no other problems, blah, blah. Although I did mention I know another barrel is coming back for the same thing and he looked at the returns and went "oh yeah, there is another one".

**sharpshooter** · 07-02-2018, 05:47 PM

Major/minor diameter doesn't mean as much as the pitch diameter. If the thread form is wrong, such as the root having a flat instead of a sharp "V", the pitch diameter will be small, while the root diameter can be spot on. Technically, the thread is 1.062" x 20 tpi. and uses the same pitch diameter. Only the crests are knocked down to 1.055", basically to aid in assembly.

**culpeper** · 07-02-2018, 07:02 PM

Why did it take so long to get the barrel in the first place? Their lead time is currently about 4.5 months with cryogenic and nitride. 10-12 weeks without them.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

**celltech** · 07-02-2018, 07:04 PM

Thanks Fred... I bet they are basing everything on an absolute 1.055" major. I hope they have not made hundreds of barrels like this. I am curious, if the actual spec is a 1 1/16" OD, I wonder why most everything I read says 1.055". Not that your website says that or anything ;-)

**celltech** · 07-02-2018, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by culpeper

Why did it take so long to get the barrel in the first place? Their lead time is currently about 4.5 months with cryogenic and nitride. 10-12 weeks without them.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

Mine took less than a month to get, but it was not treated. Maybe they are setting low expectations and then trying to beat them...

**RustyShackle** · 07-02-2018, 08:57 PM

I’m pretty sure Shaw bbls are machined such that they have relatively sharp threads. I don’t have the tools to measure the threads, but this subject has piqued my interests.

**Robinhood** · 07-02-2018, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by celltech

Thanks Fred... I bet they are basing everything on an absolute 1.055" major. I hope they have not made hundreds of barrels like this. I am curious, if the actual spec is a 1 1/16" OD, I wonder why most everything I read says 1.055". Not that your website says that or anything ;-)

The Pitch Diameter is not affected by the major or minor diameter. The major and minor diameters will affect the percentage of thread engagement. A 1.0625 - 20 TPI thread will have X.xxx pitch diameter This diameter establishes a reference point to determine where the mating parts pitch diameter should be to maintain the proper thread engagement and the class fit between the threads.

If the pitch diameters are matched correctly you could remove .010 from the tops of the threads on both the male and female pieces and it would not affect the thread fit. It would affect the strength of the joint because of the reduction in engagement. If you removed .010 from the pitch diameter your Fit becomes extremely sloppy and when torqued it can shift off center. This is what happened to OP. This is also what could happen if someone trues the threads in your action and the person who makes the barrel is not aware and cuts them to fit an unmodified action. One reason people do not recut Savage action(or any other action) threads unless they are making a custom fit barrel or they only remove .001-.002".

**celltech** · 07-02-2018, 11:44 PM

If you look at the picture I initially included the non Savage barrel has the sharp crests and the measured OD at the crest is 1.055". The Savage threads have the flat crests and measure at 1.050" actual. So I have to believe Xcal cut their threads based on that 1.055 for whatever reason, and Savage started at 1.0625" and then milled off a bit of the crest later.

I simply can't believe they have been doing this all along and nobody noticed till now....this has been a very interesting adventure for sure. Thanks to everyone for the knowledge, I have learned more about threads that I could imagine.