Anyone ever try readjusting headspace on a factory Savage?

[Qbert]

I have a Savage 12LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor that shoots very well. I also have a home-built Savage in 6.5x47 with a Rock Creek barrel in which I set the headspace pretty tight.

The issue I have is that the brass grows significantly on the factory Creed compared to the 6.5x47. As a matter of fact, my Lapua brass for the x47 has been loaded 9 times and I've never had to trim the brass - not even once. FL sizing the x47 is also almost effortless. In comparison, the Creedmoor takes A LOT more force to resize and I have to trim the brass every one or two firings.

I load the Creed with Whidden FL bushing dies and Redding Competition shellholders for a .002" bump. On the x47, I use Hornady FL bushing dies with the same shellholders for a .001" bump.

So here are my questions:

1) Is the easy sizing and lack of trimming on the x47 Lapua because of the tight headspace or because of a tighter body spec? Or both reasons?

2) Would removing and re-installing the factory Creedmoor barrel to a tighter spec (virgin Lapua small primer brass grew .004" - .005" in headspace after firing) be a good idea to make my brass life longer and brass prep easier?

3) Would I be a fool for messing with a rifle that already shoots 1/2MOA or better regularly even if I have to trim and replace my brass more often?

Thanks guys.

[SageRat Shooter]

Interesting topic and line of questioning. It will be interesting to see what answers you get from everyone here. I'm betting that is has to do with the barrel and chambering (reamer). Although the LRP is a heck of a shooter, it's still a Savage barrel... and is chambered using probably the same reamer that's used in there other lines. I'm thinking that your Rock Creek barrel had quite a bit tighter tolerances and specs. I don't have anything to back that up unfortunately.

I'm a perfectionist by nature, and if you had the tools to remove the barrel nut (without messing it up), and barrel... and had the gauges, I would be tempted to do it... Depending on how much I shoot that rifle over the other. If you're shooting the LRP more then there is another question you have to ask... How many more rounds of accuracy do you have left in the LRP? Because when you replace the barrel on the LRP, you can reset the proper headspace then. 1/2 MOA is nothing to be ashamed of in any way.

Are you using Lapua brass for both rifles?

[olddav]

Before anything else I would want to know what the head space currently is set at.

[223Randy]

You might want to purchase or rent a head space set and check it, if it is OK. Why not pick up a Lee Neck sizing die for the 6.5 Creed and not full length re-size it every time? Brass would last much longer, no change in heads pace needed.

[Evlshnngns]

Would your creedmoor die be able to reset the shoulder 4-5 thou if you tightened the headspace? I bet this is a case ofactory reamer vs a tight "match" chamber on the x47.

[Qbert]

SageRat, good questions. I believe the LRP has about 1100 rounds through it. I've used just the same 50 pieces of Lapua brass for the X47 since new for 500 rounds fired so far. With the LRP, I've used mostly Hornady brass but I bought 50 pieces of Lapua small primer brass. I thought maybe that with the small primer, my Creed brass would last longer and not need trimming like the with my x47. I was wrong. So it got me thinking about adjusting the headspace.

Olddav, I don't think I have a way of measuring, but like I mentioned in my original post, upon first firing of the Lapua small primer Creed brass, the base to shoulder length grew .004-.005" using the Whidden comparator tool on my calipers.

223Randy, good idea on the headspace set. In other words, see if it closes on a no-go gauge maybe? I do have a Lee Collet neck size die and have done that, but found the hard closing of the bolt no fun.

Evlshnngns, if I understand your question correctly, I'd think I'd no longer need to reset the shoulder .004"ish anymore if I tightened the headspace. I suspect you're right about the reamer. I tried contacting Paul at Rock Creek after he sold me the barrel to ask about the reamer used, but he never got back to me.

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen!

[Evlshnngns]

When the headspace is short, the die will be too long. You would have to shave the bottom of the die. Getting the gauges is the best place to start.

[mjcmichigan]

I’m asking myself, why couldn’t you back the FL sizer die up so you bump the shoulder back a bit less than you are now. I’d start with adjusting the die setup before changing the rifle.


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[SageRat Shooter]

Get the gauges and the tools to swap out barrels. you'll need them anyway when you swap the barrel in another 1500 rounds give or take. If you put the NOGO gauge in and the bolt won't close, then your spaced correctly. Like I and Evlshnngns said, it's probably the reamer that Savage used. Their tolerances are not as tight as most aftermarket barrels.

[Qbert]

Evlshnngns, good point. Sorry, now I understand what you were asking.

mjcmichigan, I'm only bumping the shoulder back .002" at the most the way my die is currently set up. Because before I bought the SR primer Lapua brass, I always started with factory Hornady ammo so I didn't really know my headspace starting point. The virgin SR Lapua brass grew .005" on the first firing. On the other hand, the way I installed the Rock Creek on my x47, the headspace only grew .001" (if that) from virgin brass. I was hoping I could buy 50 pcs of the SR Lapua and those would have the same characteristics as the Rock Creek x47 and then just use those 50 pcs for the rest of the factory barrel's life. I'm not a fan of the Hornady brass and its quickly loosening primer pockets and I want to get the most out of the $1+/per Lapua brass. Hopefully that makes sense - first world problems, ya know?

[Qbert]

I have just the go gauge for both the x47 (that's how I set the bbl headspace on the Rock Creek) and the Creed. Don't have any no-go gauges. Do you think the Creed go gauge and a piece of scotch tape would suffice?

Oh yeah, and I also have the Savage barrel nut wrench and a Wheeler action wrench. Probably not ideal, but since I don't have a vise, what I used on the x47.

[SageRat Shooter]

I've heard of guys doing the scotch tape trick and it has worked for them in setting the headspace. You could try it for sure, but I would just get the NOGO gauge to eliminate as much "error' as possible. I mean your talking measurements of .004 ballpark... Do you think a piece of tape is going to change the measurement? It's up to you in the end... Sounds like you have the knowledge and the tools (except the NOGO) to do the job.

[gbflyer]

I have a Savage 12LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor that shoots very well. I also have a home-built Savage in 6.5x47 with a Rock Creek barrel in which I set the headspace pretty tight.

The issue I have is that the brass grows significantly on the factory Creed compared to the 6.5x47. As a matter of fact, my Lapua brass for the x47 has been loaded 9 times and I've never had to trim the brass - not even once. FL sizing the x47 is also almost effortless. In comparison, the Creedmoor takes A LOT more force to resize and I have to trim the brass every one or two firings.

I load the Creed with Whidden FL bushing dies and Redding Competition shellholders for a .002" bump. On the x47, I use Hornady FL bushing dies with the same shellholders for a .001" bump.

So here are my questions:

1) Is the easy sizing and lack of trimming on the x47 Lapua because of the tight headspace or because of a tighter body spec? Or both reasons?

2) Would removing and re-installing the factory Creedmoor barrel to a tighter spec (virgin Lapua small primer brass grew .004" - .005" in headspace after firing) be a good idea to make my brass life longer and brass prep easier?

3) Would I be a fool for messing with a rifle that already shoots 1/2MOA or better regularly even if I have to trim and replace my brass more often?

Thanks guys.

#3 says it all. If it's that good, leave her be!

[LHitchcox]

For starters I would try to adjust my dies to match the factory chamber before resetting factory headspace. Having said that, I once bought a 110 from a pawn shop for cheap because the extractor, ball bearing and spring were missing. After replacing the parts, I found the rifle had grossly excessive headspace and the extractor had probably flown out as the previous owner had to happen the bolt open. This was an older rifle and the sights were at the 12 o'clock where the should be. I adjusted the headspace and the fired cases looked normal and the extraction was what it should be. however, the sights had to be taken off since they were now left of dead top center. My only explanation is that somehow a burr or bit of debris must have been in the chamber and kept the gage from properly setting the headspace.

[tobnpr]

I agree it's worthwhile to get a go gauge, no need for a no-go (you can just add tape to the go gauge for a quick and dirty idea of how much clearance there is- or use an indicator to see how much bolt play exists).

"Theoretically", if the Whidden FL die is correct, it should size your brass to SAAMI spec when cammed over hard without over or under sizing. I'll often set headspace to sized brass, keeps it as tight as possible. Might cause issues with some factory ammo- if it's ever used- though when done that way.

Really shouldn't be an issue with the reamer being " different" (again, all SAAMI spec), any "error" would typically be the depth of the chamber which should allow for .125-.130 of casehead/gauge protrusion.

What I'm really puzzled over is that the brass keeps growing, after fireforming you're bumping back .002, that should eliminate further excessive stretch. Curious, is the die fully bottomed out when you size .002? If you are ABLE to bump much further by adjusting the die down, that would seem to indicate headspace is set longer than it need be.

[Qbert]

UPDATE: OK, so I fooled around with the rifle and press tonight. First I took out my ejector and played with the PTG Go Gauge. Closed no prob on the gauge, of course. With one layer of scotch tape (.002") on the base of the gauge, it closed, but it had a decent amount of resistance to closing. I then put on two fresh layers of tape (.004") because the last test left the one layer a bit scuffed. It wouldn't close at all. So if I mess with tightening down the barrel a skosh more, I'd do it so it would close on the go gauge and not close with one layer of tape.

Next I checked to see if my die was fully bottoming out when I size. Oddly enough, when the ram is fully up, the bottom of the die isn't even touching the shellholder! As a matter of fact, I can slip a piece of paper (.003") between the die and shellholder with the ram fully up! This is whether or not I'm using the Redding +.004 Comp shell holder or a standard shellholder. If I didn't use the +.004, I'd be pushing the shoulder back WAAY too much!

So perhaps the Whidden die is actually TOO SHORT?!

I just wanted to say I really appreciate all the help. You guys are a great resource!

[tobnpr]

I don't mean to state the obvious, but we all get brain farts on occasion...
You're saying you have the die screwed all the way down- threads bottomed out- and the die base isn't making contact with the shellholder?

[Qbert]

Not exactly. I'm saying that I have the die adjusted so that it completely full length sizes cases and pushes the shoulder back .002" on the die - and the die base does not make contact with the shellholder. On all my other rifle dies - .223, .308, .300 Whisper, 6.5x47L, 7.62x39 - the full length size die makes FIRM contact so that there is decent cam over on my Redding Big Boss. If I screwed in the Whidden 6.5C die down to make firm contact with the shellholder, I'd probably be crushing the case! Or at minimum pushing the shoulder back well over .006".

[Robinhood]

I don't think any of my dies make contact with the shell holder. For what that is worth.

Have you actually measured your case headspace with a tool?

Where did you find .002 scotch tape(or how did you measure it?

[Qbert]

Robinhood, yes, I measure headspace with the tool that attaches to my calipers supplied with the Whidden dies. It is similar to the Stoney Point/Hornady headspace comparator thingy. Scotch tape is known to be of .002" thickness (not my discovery). I double checked with my Starrett micrometer. It's .002" on the button.

[tobnpr]

FL dies are designed to size to spec (SAAMI) when bottomed out...
We know your headspace is correct.
Sure sounds to me as though the die is "off" if it will oversize the case, IF you bottomed it out on the shellholder as would typically be required. As you stated, most of the time we need to really cam a press over hard to get out all the mechanical "slop" to get needed shoulder setback- and it's not unusual to need to grind the bottom of a die to get a bit more bump because they typically are so conservative.

This is intentional, if a manufacturer were to produce a die that could substantially oversize cases there'd be potential casehead separations (not to mention injuries and lawsuits). I do think your suspicions are correct, I'd call Whidden to discuss.

But since you have the die spaced up so as not to oversize, I'm still puzzled by the unusual amount of case stretching going on (based on the trimming you need to keep doing). Typically, I can go a half-dozen or so reloads before needing to trim.

[Robinhood]

SAAMI spec in not perfect for every chamber. If your rifles head space is at or near max but the die is bottomed out to meet minimum, then you will have .005 + or - loose on case head space. Combine that with varying tolerances for the shell holder.....

Q has stated that he knows how much he is bumping. so bottom out or not he is getting the size he needs.(Whidden discusses having to adjust dies off of face to face to get the right bump anyway. A Whidden 284 FLS shows a .014 gap to bump factory Winchester back .001. #2 shell holder used.

With that being said could Brass flow be an indicator of the softness of the brass in the section just bellow the neck upwards? Q, do you anneal?

[Qbert]

I did email Whidden a couple weeks ago about a separate issue with my Creedmoor seater but haven't heard back. It looks like an actual phone call is in order.

Robinhood, I do anneal. At least every other firing but lately I've been doing it every time. I use the Annealeze or however you spell it.

[grouse]

My factory 300 wsm would close easily on a no go gauge. I do t think they run the tolerances too tight at the factory which makes you wonder how important headspace is.

[mnbogboy2]

Qbert,
I agree with your line of thought, saving brass by working it less especially the high buck Lapua. Re-headspacing might be a worth while test.
Your cartridge headspace is good at .002 bump. If you can get by with less so much the better.
Sounds to me as others stated die is a lot tighter than the chamber (similar to a small base die), or chamber is a lot sloppier than a std die. The extra force required is squeezing (as a toothpaste tube) the extra brass forward which accounts for your extra trim.
You could tighten your shoulder to bolt headspace to Saami minimum or even a tad less. This might alleviate some sizing effort and making bumping easier. You might as other suggest have to shorten your die a tad but probably not as your die has some clearance at the present (which is good).
A custom die based on your fired brass would be the best fit ($$$). but...
If it were me I would set the barrel headspace back to a "snug fit" on the go-gauge. And yes I use tape too Scotch brand std (.002 very very close). No bolt close with one piece of tape.
After tightening headspace your case will start a smidge deeper into the chamber and any dimensional change near the case head will be less. Very small change but it should help with the force required to resize with less neck growth from sizing.
Easy enough to try. Witness marks before you dis-assemble will help get you back if anything goes south.
Accuracy might even get better! never had one get worse after re-assembly.

my .02 & good luck,
Randy