Developing 260 load

**rmkey** · 11-04-2017, 12:45 PM

So far I have obtained groups of 0.65 moa with the following:
Savage LRP 260 rem around 75 rounds fired in gun. I am using MP7 cleaner, copper remover and oil.
142gr SMK
44.0 grains of H4831SC and 40 gr of Ramshot Hunter
Lapua brass new
WLR primer
2.880 COAL jammed

Do you think I should switch primers? I know H4350 is the powder but I haven't be able to find it.
Do you think i should back off the lands 0.02?

Same set up for Berger VLD 140 grain except COAL 2.950 and 44 grains H4831sc jammed got groups of 1.0 moa
Backed up .04 off lands and the group opened up?

All shot taken off bag in prone position. Have not used lead sled.

Just out of curiosity what kind of moa can be expected, shooter disallowed, at 100 yards from this gun?

Loaded 43.0 grains H4831sc and backed OAL down to 2.935 with the VLD and much to my delight got 0.45 moa. Tried some a-max 140s .02 off lands and they were well over 1.0moa.

**culpeper** · 11-04-2017, 10:00 PM

AA4350, CCI BR2, 136 Scenar-L

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

**Mozella** · 11-05-2017, 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by rmkey

......... snip...............
Just out of curiosity what kind of moa can be expected, shooter disallowed, at 100 yards from this gun?
..............snip..............

Well, first of all you need to be sure you're talking apples and apples. There is no standard, but I think that when most people talk about group size they generally refer to 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Some folks quote group size using 3 shot groups and, of course their results will appear better even if they aren't. For example, a .415 MOA three-shot group is about the same as a .505 five-shot group, so it's important to specify. Personally, I'd like to see the 5 shot group be a standard, but that's dreaming.

Unless you're talking about some WW-I rifle dug up in India, any reasonable modern bolt rifle should be able to shoot 1 MOA most of the time without much problem. Most Savages, with a little attention to details, should be able to achieve 1/2 MOA on a good day. That doesn't mean it will shoot EVERY five-shot group better than 1/2 MOA.

Naturally, there is a big difference between shooting a .5 MOA group and AVERAGING .5 MOA. Again, you have to specify what you're talking about. For example, I have a Savage in 6mm BR Norma built on the cheap for less than $1000. I measure and catalog nearly every round I shoot. For this particular rifle shooting Berger 105gr Hybrid's at 100 yards the average MOA is .457, so I can say this rifle is better than 1/2 MOA . That includes all the load work up rounds, many of which I know ahead of time aren't going to produce the best results. If I include ranges longer than 100 yards, the average would decline. If I include several bullets less accurate than the Berger Hybrid, the average gets even worse.

If I cull out the roughest of the development loads, the average for the Berger Hybrid improves to an MOA of .394. In other words, with my "good" , "really good", and "match" ammo recopies, I think I can honestly say this rifle shoots better than .400 MOA on average. The fact that this rifle frequently produces 5 shot groups better than .250 MOA does NOT make it a 1/4 MOA rifle. In any case, I'm happy with my cheap Savage at 100 yards, especially since the barrel, the bullets and the loads are optimized for shooting F-Class matches at 600 yards. With a different barrel and bullet better suited to 100 yards, the performance would be better.

Here is another way to look at how precise your rifle really is. On a day without any wind, bring your best ammo and put five bucks down on your bench. Invite anyone to pick it up if your next five shots don't group better than such-and-such MOA. With my 6mm BR Norma I'd say 1/2 MOA. In other words, when you put your money where your mouth is, the truth often emerges.

In summary, your question is not easy to answer. I would say if you're paying attention to your reloading skills you should be disappointed with any 5 shot groups with an MOA worse than 1.000. That doesn't mean they won't happen once in a while, but you should not accept them as OK. You should expect to shoot a lot of groups around .750 MOA with some of them better than .5 MOA. When you do that, you should come home from the range relatively satisfied.

With luck (luck is the critical word here), some day you'll shoot a group around 1/4 MOA. You can cut this out and put it in your wallet and/or post it on the Internet. But don't get excited and claim that you or your rifle can shoot "1/4 MOA all day long" based on one really nice group.

Now if you work hard, you could improve your 100 yard performance from 3/4 MOA to 1/2 MOA most of the time, but the effort to improve from that point goes up exponentially. It costs more too. Some people pay more for their powder scales than I paid for my most recent car purchase.

**tobnpr** · 11-05-2017, 06:43 PM

^^ Nice write-up.
I'll add for the OP to try tested work-up methods like OCW and Ladder testing. Bullet jump is usually the last thing after the load is developed. Berger has an excellent resource for VLD workup:

http://www.bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/

If you're ever going to shoot at long range, Ladder and a chrono is near mandatory as velocity spreads will not show up at only 100 yards. Large deviations in velocity aren't acceptable in that application.

For me, it's H4350, but every barrel is different.

spitfan · 11-08-2017, 04:53 AM

I've been shooting a 12LRP in 260 for a couple of years and it is an outstanding rifle. Very consistent and was easy to find loads it likes. Best load so far is Lapua collect neck sized brass, Wolf primers, 39.5 grs Varget, 123 Amax at 3.273" with a comparator. It out shoots me. I can't get a pic posted but 1-2" groups at 600 are not too hard. I usually shoot 3 shot groups but will try 5 the next few times out

**stomp442** · 11-08-2017, 09:48 AM

With 4831sc I have found really good nodes around the 46 grain mark. Work up to that of course but I have a couple .260s that shoot that load really well.

**rmkey** · 11-21-2017, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mozella

Well, first of all you need to be sure you're talking apples and apples. There is no standard, but I think that when most people talk about group size they generally refer to 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Some folks quote group size using 3 shot groups and, of course their results will appear better even if they aren't. For example, a .415 MOA three-shot group is about the same as a .505 five-shot group, so it's important to specify. Personally, I'd like to see the 5 shot group be a standard, but that's dreaming.

Unless you're talking about some WW-I rifle dug up in India, any reasonable modern bolt rifle should be able to shoot 1 MOA most of the time without much problem. Most Savages, with a little attention to details, should be able to achieve 1/2 MOA on a good day. That doesn't mean it will shoot EVERY five-shot group better than 1/2 MOA.

Naturally, there is a big difference between shooting a .5 MOA group and AVERAGING .5 MOA. Again, you have to specify what you're talking about. For example, I have a Savage in 6mm BR Norma built on the cheap for less than $1000. I measure and catalog nearly every round I shoot. For this particular rifle shooting Berger 105gr Hybrid's at 100 yards the average MOA is .457, so I can say this rifle is better than 1/2 MOA . That includes all the load work up rounds, many of which I know ahead of time aren't going to produce the best results. If I include ranges longer than 100 yards, the average would decline. If I include several bullets less accurate than the Berger Hybrid, the average gets even worse.

If I cull out the roughest of the development loads, the average for the Berger Hybrid improves to an MOA of .394. In other words, with my "good" , "really good", and "match" ammo recopies, I think I can honestly say this rifle shoots better than .400 MOA on average. The fact that this rifle frequently produces 5 shot groups better than .250 MOA does NOT make it a 1/4 MOA rifle. In any case, I'm happy with my cheap Savage at 100 yards, especially since the barrel, the bullets and the loads are optimized for shooting F-Class matches at 600 yards. With a different barrel and bullet better suited to 100 yards, the performance would be better.

Here is another way to look at how precise your rifle really is. On a day without any wind, bring your best ammo and put five bucks down on your bench. Invite anyone to pick it up if your next five shots don't group better than such-and-such MOA. With my 6mm BR Norma I'd say 1/2 MOA. In other words, when you put your money where your mouth is, the truth often emerges.

In summary, your question is not easy to answer. I would say if you're paying attention to your reloading skills you should be disappointed with any 5 shot groups with an MOA worse than 1.000. That doesn't mean they won't happen once in a while, but you should not accept them as OK. You should expect to shoot a lot of groups around .750 MOA with some of them better than .5 MOA. When you do that, you should come home from the range relatively satisfied.

With luck (luck is the critical word here), some day you'll shoot a group around 1/4 MOA. You can cut this out and put it in your wallet and/or post it on the Internet. But don't get excited and claim that you or your rifle can shoot "1/4 MOA all day long" based on one really nice group.

Now if you work hard, you could improve your 100 yard performance from 3/4 MOA to 1/2 MOA most of the time, but the effort to improve from that point goes up exponentially. It costs more too. Some people pay more for their powder scales than I paid for my most recent car purchase.

This is the best answer I have ever had! A lot of very well thought out advice. We would all like to be able to say "I shot a quarter inch group with my rifle" even though we could never reproduce it! The above is real-world gospel truth. I thank you. Just sorry I got lost since I am new to the forum I started posting in the section on Savage 110 and derivatives. The moderator moved it to reloading where it should have been. With the wealth of knowledge on this forum and some investment I have hopes of achieving my goal. Someday.

**rmkey** · 11-21-2017, 02:37 PM

I do have a chrono but not sure what ladder is. I have just got my hands on some H4350 but have not loaded it yet. It would seem many things affect accuracy but from what I read in the "secrets of the houston warehouse" within limits powder may not be the greatest factor or it may be. So far, I am beginning to see results from seating .015 jump. Since have work to do with seating then I will switch to the difficult to obtain H4350 and standardize. Most of this is new to me even though I have be loading for years.
But all I was doing was cranking out stuff similar to factory ammo- I never tailored to a specific gun! I have a lot to learn.

**SageRat Shooter** · 11-21-2017, 02:42 PM

My load is 43 gr. H4350 pushing the 143 ELD-X @2750 fps seated .04 off.... It's a max load though so be maybe work up to that (I started at 42 grains) and using Lapua and Norma brass.

**rmkey** · 11-21-2017, 02:48 PM

Thanks. I have been using 4831sc and varget but have stayed well below max looking for the seating depth. Its interesting sometimes the best accuracy is close or at max and other times people say they are better at a modest load. I think though it seems most are saying somewhere near max. At moderate loads I could see little difference in H4831sc and varget but that may be because I have not identified the oal for the cartridge, bullet and gun but I am getting closer. I use lapua brass, cci br primers, weight the charges and check for run out. I am thinking the right combo of seating depth, primer and powder will provide the result along with a clean barrel. I have only recently learned out to properly clean a barrel! I sure wish I could afford a borescope but that's out of the question. When I move to the other calibers I will have to reinvest in quality dies as most of mine are bottom line rcbs, lyman and lee. I am using Forrester for the 260 now.

**SageRat Shooter** · 11-21-2017, 02:58 PM

I had good accuracy with the H4831SC at 46 to 46.5 gr. but it lacked the velocity I was looking for.... Forster is a pretty good seating Die, but I HATED the sizing die. It wound up crushing the necks in on my Lapua brass (not cool at $1.13 a pop) I am using the Redding type S bushing die for sizing now(.292 and .293 bushing size) gives me .001 to .002 neck tension and it doesn't crush my necks in.

**eddiesindian** · 11-24-2017, 09:09 PM

I'm using 39.5gr of h4350sc on the 142gr smks. .040 jump ......At 3800 ft of elevation there cruising a slow 2470fps. Its an accurate load. I'm sending them out to 1k and getting conistancy.
Try to not de copper your barrel while your load developing
Just my 2cents

**rmkey** · 11-25-2017, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by eddiesindian

I'm using 39.5gr of h4350sc on the 142gr smks. .040 jump ......At 3800 ft of elevation there cruising a slow 2470fps. Its an accurate load. I'm sending them out to 1k and getting conistancy.
Try to not de copper your barrel while your load developing
Just my 2cents

Good load info but what do you mean by de copper?
I always thought you wanted the bore clean for each session. I test 4 groups of 3 shots and clean before the next test. I had a custom barrel I sent back to maker thinking it was defective. The groups were bad and getting worse. A bit embarrassing but it was copper fouled. I didn’t use due diligence during break in though I tried cleaning I just didn’t get it. I’m talking no more than 75 rounds total before I sent it back. The maker said the usual solvents didn’t work so he cleaned it with JB bore paste.
Ever since I am continually devoted to removing all traces of carbon and copper. I now apply Boron nitride to the bore and bullets to reduce fouling and clean every session. That’s why i’m curious about your comment not to de copper.

**SageRat Shooter** · 11-27-2017, 11:17 AM

Rmkey,

He means (I think) don't clean the copper out of your barrel after every shoot you do. The barrel has to be fouled to get the consistency and accuracy that we all are looking for. If you leave the barrel fouled then the copper stays in there and keeps things consistent. After a few hundred rounds and you notice the groups starting to open up again, then clean out the copper...

For example, Lone Wolf is a PRS competition shooter, he told me that he won't clean the copper out of his barrel for about 300 rounds give or take.... He just cleans the carbon and stuff out after each shoot, but doesn't mess with the copper until he starts to see his accuracy drop off.

However, if you are bouncing back and forth between traditional lead/copper coated and the solid copper bullet like a Barnes bullet. You have to clean the copper out between those bullets...