Hello, I have several "firsts" here, first bolt gun, first Savage, (12FV in .223) first problem with favorite loads.
Previously I have loaded .223 for my AR15 guns, various hand guns, never had a problem. I use (well for this question anyway) a Lee Classic turret press,
and have had this trouble with both the Lee .223 dies, as well as the dies I am currently using, Redding Competition bushing micrometer neck sizer along with the Redding Competition Body die which are used in conjunction with the Redding Competition shell holders.
This die set allows controlled and adjustable neck sizing, full length body sizing, and adjustable shoulder set back via the set of shell holders, each of which are .002 difference from the next, 5 holders in the set.
The problem occurs regardless of which dies I use and I think it is a problem with the chamber, lead in an so forth.
The load is from Sierra, and is with Sierra match kings, 69 grain, 52 grain 53 grain, as well as 53 grain non match kings, also Sierra. I have always noticed that these bullets do not allow me to use the Sheridan case gauge, the bullet binds, leaving the head standing a little proud. I have plenty of other measuring devices so this isnt a problem.
The 69 grain SMK are set at 2.260, the 52 and 53 grain SMK are set at 2.250, per Sierra. These rounds have all performed well, a few of the non match kings having to be culled out due to a smashed flat shipping package.
I loaded some up, having prepared LC brass, using Reddings instruction of bumping the shoulder until the case goes in and bolt shuts without binding. I loaded a few without primer and powder to see how they fit, removed and measured. Apparently these round must contact the lands, I noticed a slight, very slight resistance to shutting the bolt, as well as pulling it back, maybe a little more so. Remeasuring showed it had been collapsed down to 2.240, another shut and open 2.239, another 2.238 where it seemed to hold. I removed bullet, set it back to 2.250, but with the looser neck ejecting it and measuring showed 2.270, from the friction of trying to pull it out.
Hmmmm, others tell me they dont have this problem and neither did I before this. I know the bolt gun chamber is tighter/shorter than one in an AR, but this seems problematic. The gent that "had no problem" also had about 2500 rounds through his and thought maybe barrel erosion was sufficient to allow it to fit in his gun.
Should I send barrel back to Savage, (or the whole gun) or just find shorter rounds? Apparently 2.238 is max for this chamber with these bullets..
Thankyou for any help anyone could give, especially if these Sierra loads fit your 12FV or if they dont and if so, what you did about it. I have been told I could have it reamed, but seems this could possible mess up accuracy?
Sorry if this should have been in the centerfire rifle thread, this one seemed as much about the load as the gun.
Russellc
Wait a minute, having had all the Sierra bullets mentioned act similarly, I assumed the 69 grain Match king did too. I didnt have any on hand, so I unloaded one I had and made a primerless powderless dummy out of it. set at 2.260, and it fit. Oddly, I guess it is the smaller weights causing the trouble. I have noticed the seating die must be re set between the 69 grain and the small 52 and 53 grain ones, obviously different ogives but who would have thought this?
Russellc
If I'm following correctly, this is some basic reloading details; so lets get some things straightened out for you.
Sierra(Et al) loads - Sierra doesn't list what YOU should load to, merely what they loaded to. Sometimes the numbers are simply SAAMI min or max for the cartridge. A reloader should ALWAYS build dummy cartridges for every bullet in every rifle, and load for that rifle on it's own; rather than a painting by numbers affair. Get out a sharpie and color the bullet in the dummy, then you can see where the bullet does or doesn't contact something.
You certainly CAN send the rifle back to Salvage to have it inspected(quite common for them to short chamber things and have QC miss it), OR send it to a smith and have it guaged, reamed, etc. But all you need to do is adjust the dies to accomodate for the throat. Which is easier/cheaper, is up to you.
Ogives and total OAL do vary, that isn't uncommon. Dies also are known to need to "settle" when being changed, adjusted, etc. All just part of the game.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
I gave my son a 12FV in 223 last year for X-mas. It was his first experience shooting and pretty soon he was making tiny groups with 53 gr V-Max and IMR3031. I (we) don't FL size our 223 brass, neck size only using Lee Ultimate dies that produce <.002 runout, and almost never have to trim. Can't ask for much more.
As I read it, you may not have the tools you need to measure your OAL, base to ogive? If not, you probably want to get those right away, and I'm going to tell you how to make a dummy bullet to find the lands. Important, as you may know, if you want to seat to a particular distance off or into the lands while developing a load.
What you'll need: A fire formed brass from your new gun that fits fairly tight. If you put a piece of Scotch tape on the head and the bolt closes with effort, that is about right.
You'll also need a 7/64 drill and tap for 6-32, and a section of 3 piece cleaning rod, the type Hoppes sells in all the stores.
To start, clean your barrel good, including throat and chamber.
Drill and tap the flash hole in your cartridge. Install it on the section of cleaning rod and slide it into the chamber, with the bolt out obviously. Check the fit. Spin it around, and make sure it doesn't drag on anything. If it does, find out why and correct.
Neck size the brass and seat the bullet you want to measure, but seat it a bit long. Measure the base to ogive and record it.
Install the brass with bullet onto the cleaning rod, and slide it into the chamber with a firm push as the shoulder makes contact. Now extract it. You should be feeling resistance, and tendency to stick if the bullet is stuck in the lands.
Go back and seat the bullet a bit deeper, maybe .005 and repeat the process until you feel no stickiness as you try to extract the cartridge. That is your basic touching lands dimension. Record that number, and you may also use a sharpie to mark the brass with date, gun, bullet and dimension. Keep that cartridge for reference. Your base measurement will grow as the throat erodes. If you're chasing the lands, you'll be making this measurement fairly often, including when you buy a new batch of bullets or a different lot number.
If your issue is that factory ammo with longer bullets like 69 gr SMK are sticking with attendant bolt closure problems, you might just shoot the lighter bullets until the throat has eroded a bit. But if you're hand loading, you'll need to be able to make this measurement often and accurately.
That little 53 V-Max will bust 4 inch clays one after the other at 500 yds and will go to 750 pretty reliably too. Not bad for a cheap, entry level gun, IMOP.
Last edited by Texas10; 09-18-2017 at 12:51 AM.
Banning a gun will not solve what is a mental health crisis inflamed by incendiary rhetoric on social and television media. The first amendment in this case is less precious and more likely the causal factor than the second amendment.
My 12 Varmint Low Profile 223 had a tight leade/throat since day 1. When first measuring for CBTO I found that 69 grain SMK and 77 TMKs made contact at the throat before getting to the lands. I'd smudge a bullet and with the Hornady OAL gauge and see an even contact mark fully around the bullet at the ojive. You may be experiencing the same issue. I treated that measurement as hitting the lands and moved on. That rifle continues to shoot .7" 5 shot groups or better. Find your best powder load, and shoot it.
Load them shorter for a few hundred rounds and the leade will loosen. Had the same problem with a 308 FCP-K. Even Factory Federal Gold Medal 175gr would JAM ! After a few hundred rounds the problem went away giving me the idea that the leade (freebore) was a bit tight or something along those lines.
The OP has it right, you can use loaded rounds at some risk though the Savage is pretty immune to an ND.
The basics are that this is recommended safe for hunting and it will work with most chambers, short chambers will not and that's why it has to be confirmed.
You simply do a normal size case, seat the bullet of your choice in it.
Seat it to .025 (at least) longer than recommended (note recommended, that fits most chambers with a good .020 clearance)
Then put the case in and very gently push the bolt closed. It should stop short of bolt closure and it will stick.
Light tap with a plastic handled, then seat .010 deeper and repeat.
Repeat until you get a full bolt closure. At that point you are pretty close. Good enough to write down.
You are better (more accurate ) to measure the Bullet Ogive while doing this as its more consistent than the bullet tip distance.
Then seat the bullet another .015 deeper, load up a group and shoot. I take a press to the range with me and play with COAL depending on how it goes.
The micrometer and ogive setup fit in my range box.
Remington is doing guns with very long throats for the VLD bullets. You have those eat those far past recommended.
Frankly you are better off with a short throat as you shoot it will eat it out and you will keep seating longer.
Often its the throat and not the rifling that goes.
I have a 12 F/TR in .223. It definitely had a short chamber and barrel will be replaced over the winter with a non Savage barrel since I see a drop off in accuracy. Also, when new, I couldn't even get a 73 grain to chamber. I am now shooting 80's.
If you send it back to Savage, be prepared for them to give you service that should be expected because of their QC EXCEPT if your target (red) Accutrigger craps out. That was a full replacement of the entire mechanism.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks