Hello all!!
So I've been checking out some of the "Precision" gunsmiths that build their own weapons systems (Gunwerks, Best of the West) and others... They all talk about using single piece actions.... Because they are so strong and "precise" (Tempest action in this case).
So my question is: How does the 110 thru 116 actions measure up to a Tempest or similar action as far as strength, precision etc....? Is it a single, or two/three piece action?
I did a google search and a search here, but I haven't been able to find even a general consensus...
Thanks,
You will find ALOT of sharp shooters and bench rest champions that build their own rifles base them on savage recievers... I don't know the answer to your question but I'm guessing savage must be pretty darn good for so many pros to build their rifles around their action
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Ted,
I totally agree with you and have built all of my rifles off of the Savage action. I was just wondering if anybody actually knows where the Savage "stacks up" against one of those "precision actions"... I'm totally happy with my Savage builds which are .5 MOA shooters... Which is the best I can shoot anyway!! Especially for my "non competition" long range plinking/varminting...
Cheers,
Right on :) I have 3 savages and love them all... I've prices some of the "precision" actions... never the one you mentioned but when I for example can out shoot someone at the range with their 8000 dollar custom with my factory 22-250 , I just have to laugh.. politely of course lol
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That's the part I like the best too.... Shooting bug holes or just have it setting on the bench and have guys come buy and look at it... What is that? they say... I love the look on their face when I say "It's a Savage"... :-)Originally Posted by Ted_Feasel
Although the only thing Savage that's on it is the action....
Savage isn't cool. So any comparison has that.
Savage does make their target actions more "solid" with single or dual port.
I do like the idea of the integral scope base machined in on those. But for all but the largest calibers I don't think it makes all that much difference in action stiffness.
Seems to me most accuracy is in the precision of the parts made. Savage gets the win with the floating bolt head.
Personally, I want a Shillen action that has Savage barrel nut and bolt head but everything else is Remington.
All of that is opinion of course. I have not seen anything definitive on your question.
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I think I'm getting a shilen 28" chromeolly match barrel for my savage .308... I'm going with the big varmint barrel as I do not hunt (don't get mad hunters, I do support those that do hunt :) ) since I'm not worried about weight and either bench bags or bipod shooting
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Ted: Target shooting and hunting are vastly different but has nothing to do with an apology needed.
After about 4 years of serious shooting I have concluded that the Savage is definitely capable of a minimum of 1/2 inch groups if you do your part (and good loads)
After that the barrel drives the results and I think with a good after market barrel you can shoot 1s and 2s.
Two of my rifles (with aftermarket barrels) will shoot an occasional 1/4 MOA. More 7/16. I had read that the best a person can hold is about 1/4.
I got a fairly new barrel in and found a load and its been shooting somewhere between 1s and 2s pretty consistently.
I think the assessments is on a non wind day I can shoot that well, the other two barrels are not quite there and I get that lucky cross over where the wobble and accuracy counter each other and its a good group.
Of course the serious competition says you have to shoot that all the time and I am far from that.
But even a 110/10 action is capable of some very good work with a good barrel, right loads, good shooter.
You get to the upper end and then the better equipment and shooter will drive to more consistent so I don't think the Savage will win national match though the Savage team is competitive up there with Savage actions and after market barrels.
I so very seriously was considering a premium built, premium price rifle. Even though knowing how well a Savage can shoot outta tha box. I reckon I thought the difference would be in extreme long ranges.
1,000+ yards to be precise. Then, I saw the video of the guy shooting a 16 Bear Hunter in 300 wsm at 1,500 yards, and then 1,760 yards ( 1 mile I believe )
At any rate, the 1,500 yards shots were just exceptional imo! Out of 3 shots, 2 were within 1" of the other lol....
And not to mention that at 1,760 yards, he did hit the target 2 of 3 times. I think anyways. I could be mistaken.
But, the 1,500 yard results were enough. I'm not saying at all that Im good enough to pull that off, but evidently the Savage certainly is good enough.
I think it would be hard to find another $750-$850 dollar rifle to do that, much less a $1500+ rifle.
Your typical savage can be tweaked to compete with just about anything out there... id rather by a 500 savage, spend 300 more for a match barrel, couple hundred on a good stock and have a rifle that shoots probably as good as most customs at a fraction of the cost
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I will find out.... My 260 Rem Match (Savage build) just got finished ($2000 including optics).... built for the intention of 1000+ yards (Varmints, Steel, & Milk jugs).
Ted, That's what I did....
111 LH Action
Boyds Pro varmint stock + all new bottom metal
Criterion 260 Rem Match Varmint @ 25"-- new recoil lug and barrel nut, oversized bolt handle
Sightron SIII 6-24x50 FFP & 20 MOA rail
Steel pillars.
Yes they are:) I love target shooting.. and that's what I am thinking of doing... building a target rifle using savage action and shilen match barrel... it looks like shilen makes a match barrel for the savage .308 I have... I still have some confusion on what stock I can match it all with... but at first estimate it looks like I should be able to build a pretty good precision rifle for around 1k...
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What are you referring to when you say "single piece" action? Every receiver I've ever seen is a single piece. As far as strength, they're all built strong enough for their intended purpose. Stiffness is a relative term....stiff enough for what? I've never had an issue with an action not being stiff enough.
The current IBS 1 mile 5 shot record was shot by Tim Lambert on 10/04/03 at Pella Ia. The group measured 10.938. Tim also won first place at the NBRSA 1000 yd Nationals by setting a new 6 target agg record of 8.964. That summer he also garnered the VHA longest shot award by hitting a prairie dog at 2155 yds.
And now you're wondering what did he do it with?..............
a 7mm WSM screwed on to a 2002 vintage Savage flat top single shot action.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
Let me see if I can address the Original Post. I'll say, up front, that I own Savage rifles as well as some full custom rifles built off custom 700 clone actions like the Defiance Deviant Tactical and the Bighorn TL3. First of all, I think that the 'single piece actions' you're referring to simply mean that the rail on the top of the rifle is actually part of the action rather than a separate piece that's mounted to the top of the action, using "mounting screws" to attach the rail section. Having an action that is milled out of a single piece of metal, including the integral rail, serves 3 purposes: it stiffens the action and it guarantees that the base for your scope will never come loose and it's in absolute perfect alignment with the action. The reason "precision" rifle builders favor these custom actions is for the incredibly tight tolerances that they are manufactured to; and the resulting "trueness" of the action. The capability of an action, any action, to produce consistent accuracy is directly related to how "true" the action is. "True" means that every face is square to every other face - for example, the bolt face is square to the receiver face. When a precision builder uses a factory action he'll check the action and then machine it to make it as true as possible- to try and squeeze as much accuracy as possible out of the action. Savage actions are usually pretty good but they still usually need some truing. The cost for this service can run $250-$500. High end custom actions do not need to be trued. If they are not absolutely true, the manufacturer would immediately replace the action.
The stiffness of an action is important if you're trying to get the utmost accuracy out of your rifle. If you think it isn't important, try adding 10 pounds of torque to your front action screw (it won't harm your rifle) but leave the rear screw alone. See how your rifle shoots. This will cause your action to bend ever so slightly (assuming your action screws were torqued properly to begin with) and it will not shoot as well. The stiffness of a custom action adds to its ability to provide more accuracy than a factory action.
All that said, is a custom action necessary to build a very accurate rifle? Absolutely not. My absolutely stock Savage 10/110 Predator Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor will shoot some factory match ammo consistently in the .6s and consistently in the upper .3s with handloads; and I'm still working to improve those. However, my new full blown custom Creedmoor (built on a Defiance action) shoots factory Hornady 147gr ELD-X consistently in the low .3s! I just picked it up yesterday so I haven't done any load development for it. I'm pretty confident I can get it to shoot in the low .2s or upper .1s. To me, the expense was worth it but for a lot of guys that improvement isn't worth the expense. It all boils down to what your goals are and what you can afford. I spent 2 years squirreling away money and buying components to build this rifle. All the while, happily shooting my Savage better than a lot of guys' custom rifles.
The Savage action has always been popular with some precision shooters because of the barrel nut method of attaching a barrel. This allows guy's to do a lot of their own work on their rifles. Particularly in recent years since high quality barrel makers have begun offering Savage compatible barrels. While there have certainly been records set and top ranked shooters using Savage rifles, there are very few top ranked shooters, in any discipline, shooting Savage actions any more; and the number is still dwindling. There will always be pros shooting them - as long as they sponsor shooters. However, most serious competitive shooters are using one custom action or another. Tikka actions have also gained widespread popularity because of their out-of-the-box trueness. The Savage barrel nut has been stolen to produce the "Remage" system - using a Savage style nut on Remington and Remington clone actions. Recently the West Texas Ordinance "SwitchLug" systems has been introduced which allow shooters to swap barrels with ease, right at the bench, with nothing more than your hands and a Wheeler Fat Wrench - no vices or anything. These types of systems are eliminating one of the traditional appeals of Savage to the precision shooter.
Please don't take my comments as a slam, in any way, on Savage - they aren't. I own, shoot and love several Savage rifles. I hope I answered the OP's original question. A good gunsmith can take a Savage action and make it shoot like most any custom but the cost approaches a custom action; so many guys just go straight to a custom. The Curtis Axiom is under $1k and works as well as any other custom. Most shooters, though, aren't interested in building the most accurate rifle they can and there's nothing wrong with that. Savage produces rifles that are more than accurate enough for most shooters. IMO, it's like cars - some guys drive a Mustang 5.0 and some guys drive a Mustang Shelby 350GT. The Mustang 5.0 is as fast as most guys want to go with handling characteristics that meet or exceed most guys' abilities and desires at a price point that they can afford. Some guys want that 'extra' that the Shelby 350GT provides and they're willing to pay the price. Neither guy is 'cooler' or 'better' and both of them can go get groceries or take their ladies out on a date; but in a head-to-head race, the guy with the Shelby is going to have an edge. That's the difference between a rifle built on a Savage action vs a rifle built on a full custom action.
FWIW - "Gunwerks" is a ripoff. You can get what they offer (or more), for less money, by choosing another builder. They charge for their name and TV image, but don't provide more value. They are all about the hype at a premium premium price.
Sorry for the extraordinarily long post!
I was totally confused by the OP as well, for the same reason. Then the thread digressed into a Savage love fest instead of addressing the issue raised in the OP.
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I think that's a good (if lengthy - grin) summation.
In my wildest dreams I won't shoot consistent 1s and 2s that it take to be a pro.
On the other hand you obviously can get a but 1/2 MOA out of a Savage and a good barrel.
I am not in love with Savage because of emotion, I like them because of what they are and what I can do with them
Their feed system has issues that I would add as a caveat for hunting (though the only time I needed more than one shot it was not enough either)
OP: Depends on what you like, Boyd's makes a hell of a fine fitting stock in various forms. I am particularly biased to the Laminated ones. They are as good or better than the composites for stability, they actually look good. I am a function guy over form, but I simply do nto like the black/green/brown or whatever paint look.
I am partial to Thumb hole but got to shoot my brother (composite, ungh) with the exaggerated hand grip and liked that one as well.
I have tow Boyds, one is an original Savage light weight on a 30-06 action. Good loos are shooting under 1/2 MOA (more often as I get better) and it took a very small amount of relief work on the rear.
The other one is the same, taken a while to find some loads, but the fit was close to perfect. Neither is bedded (My brother bedded my EABS (?) as that one had to have it and does very good. I prefer not to if I don't have to.
The channel does need to be opened up for a Varmint or Bull contour but that is easily done with 80grit sand paper around a dowel, socket and sealed back up with Formby's.
If you're looking at the Tempest action, I would suggest you look at the Curtis Customs Axiom Action - http://www.curtiscustom.com/product/axiom-4/
The Tempest is a great action but you're paying extra for the Georgia Precision name. The Curtis Axiom is newer but it's sweeping the PRS world right now because it offers the 60 degree bolt throw and all the quality of the Tempest action at a lot lower price point. The Axiom is a 3 lug bolt while the Tempest is a 6 lug bolt - something I think is more hype than substance and the bolt lift is stiffer than I like. The Axiom comes with a DLC coated bolt for $925 and you can get it with both bolt and action DLC coated for $1,095. That's a lot of savings for a buttery smooth coated action with a 60 degree bolt throw and an incredibly light bolt lift! You can lift the bolt with one finger on the Axiom.
If you like the floating bolt head design, like a Savage action uses, check out the Bighorn TL3: http://bighornarms.com/product/tl3-action/
It doesn't have an integral rail but it's plenty stiff and their tolerances are as tight as any other custom action. I love it because you can swap out bolt heads if you build a switch barrel rifle - see my previous post. You can use it in a "Remage" build or a SwitchLug build. Also, you've got to love the controlled round feeding! It's a 90degree bolt lift but I'm so used to that it's not even an issue. My dream would be a TL3 with a 60 degree lift, though. They offer a SR3 model that's a little lighter. http://bighornarms.com/product/tl3-action/
If you're looking for info on building precision rifles, whether you're using a Savage action or a custom action, www.AccurateShooter.com and www.SnipersHide.com are terrific resources for information and advice. For long range hunting and precision rifles for hunting, you might look at www.LongRangeHunting.com and www.LongRangeOnly.com for ELR shooting.
Hope this helps some!
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Something I will add in the decision matrix.
I got to shoot a modern Remington (Makr X?) trigger.
It was awful. The owner replaced it.
The Savage Acu is pretty good, maybe not the best but awfully good.
You sure don't need to replace it firs thing.
I am 100% happy with the accutrigger:) I feel like it's got a crisp and clean release on it and I've got it turned down as low as it will go so it's almost like all I have to do is think about firing
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I agree. Its a superb trigger. I just really like the law enforcement series that goes down to 1.5 pounds. Of course, I could certainly live with my current 2.5 pound accutrigger if I had too :)
I thought they went down to 1 lb 12 oz?
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The Law Enforcement Series?
I was under the impression it was 1.5 pounds.
And the standard accutrigger 2.5 pounds
I didn't quite understand the multiple piece thing either. Cool about the old flattop. To me one of the better ways to find out about different actions is to look at equipment lists from competitions and check
out the they are using.
Thanks for all the replies guys!!
I think BrushyHillGuide gave me the answer I was looking for... Honestly I didn't know what "single piece" meant either... His explanation of what they refer to as single piece makes it much clearer as to what they are and why the Precision builders use them.
This was a question I asked just to gain some knowledge on the differences between a true full custom rifle compared to my "budget" semi custom Savage builds.... I am in no way interested in looking at a Tempest or any other precision action out there. I am very happy with my Savage action rifles and have built a couple now that I'm quite proud of. I'm sure the rifles are capable of the 2''s and 3's that ya'll refer to, and I'm pretty sure the problem is "me behind the trigger"... that I can't get better results then the .5" groups I shoot. I'm just a country boy with a precision varminting addiction... not a comp shooter.
Thanks for the explanation Brushy Hill!
Have shown more than a few Savage bashers this article over the years. They always swear that the rifles were not stock...talked to one of the shooters and he says that they were out of the box and they did some tinkering. I for one was impressed. I'm into precision varminting myself and currently have a Savage heavy barrel 22-250 on an older flat back with a target trigger and walnut stock that will put five all touching most of the time. Works for me. Hang in there bro!I am very happy with my Savage action rifles and have built a couple now that I'm quite proud of. I'm sure the rifles are capable of the 2''s and 3's that ya'll refer to, and I'm pretty sure the problem is "me behind the trigger"... that I can't get better results then the .5" groups I shoot. I'm just a country boy with a precision varminting addiction... not a comp shooter.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...s-on-a-budget/
I wonder if some of this is the type of receiver, i.e. single shot.
A single shot will be more solid /rigid than one that has the cutout for a magazine or clip.
I would suspect I would never see the difference but someone who is realy good, yes.
That long a range shooting the wind is also a possible significant factor (noting the wind coach)
Windy day it become the predominate factor.
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