I had a question about 223 ammo. I have been looking around at some different brands of ammo when I came across wolf gold. I did some more research on this ammo and came to find out that its a hot little round, hitting around 3,200 FPS. My question is, can a 223 barrel handle these velocities and pressures? Would this be stressing the barrel? (As it seems this ammo is loaded to 5.56 spec velocity)
Certainly... I run 55gr Hornady VMax's on top of 25gr Accurate 2230 @ 3200fps all day long. Been shooting that load out of a model 10 w/factory barrel for well over 20 years... Very first rifle I cut my teeth hand-loading bottle neck cartridges, and it'll still do MOA or better, no problem.
3200 fps with a 55 grain bullet from a 24" barrel is normal for .223 Remington. See http://guide.sportsmansguide.com/bal.../223rembal.htm.
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Unless you know the powder they load with(which wouldn't be canister grade anyway), you would have to measure pressure to know what they are running.Originally Posted by BDMGuy
Here is some practical info, since this debate never goes away anyhow.
The 223 and 5.56 are the same external dimensions as far as the case goes. As far as the pressure goes, ONLY in the USA is there a supposed difference. The entire rest of the world runs on the CIP standards, and those two cartridges are spec'd identically for pressure. As far as us Murrican's go, many will pull up the CIP and SAAMI pages and cry foul because the listed pressures are "different". But they don't seem capable of actually reading, or following testing standards. CIP and SAAMI use different testing methods, AND measure in different places.
Just like measuring horsepower, The farmers here will appreciate this example. Tractors have 2 horsepower ratings: Crank, and PTO horsepower. The two are not the same, and they are taken at different places and describe different systems. So you can't say that the 5.56 has a different spec than the 223, because that is only the case in the US; and the difference is from different places and systems.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
The .223 rifles with a 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 twist have the shorter .0250 throat, and a .223 with a 1 in 9 twist will have a longer throat similar to or longer the a AR15 rifles .0500 throat.
It is the shorter throats that can cause the increase in chamber pressure and Quickload has three listings for the .223 and 5.56.
The older 5.56 M193 round was loaded to the same pressure as the .223 at 55,000 psi. "BUT" the newer 5.56 M885 round is loaded to 58,700 psi and if fired in a short throated .223 the chamber pressure would be approaching proof pressure rounds.
Bottom line my Savage .223 with a 1 in 9 twist had a throat length longer than my AR15 rifles.
I did a quick search of the Savage website and only found .223 twist rates of 1 in 9 and 1 in 10 twist rates. So check your rifles model for the twist rate.
Below a test was done on comertial and military ammo, and the Russian ammo was loaded to below 55,000 psi.
5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
As you can see below in the chart below .223 ammunition was loaded "below the max rated chamber pressure of 55,000 psi. (far left green bar)
Take a look at the current Western Powders load guide.
There is a pressure difference, otherwise they couldn't have ever met the NATO ammo specs that were set way back when. In order to meet the written in stone NATO velocity spec they had to adjust what was considered maximum pressure for the cartridge.
Yes methodology is different but there is a difference.
Big Ed, There are at least 3 model 12's with 7 twist.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
My AR15 carbine has a 1 in 7twist, my AR15 A2 HBAR has a 1 in 9 twist and my Savage .223 has a 1 in 9 twist with a longer throat than either AR15.
I've said this about a million times.......Savage .223 barrels will never have less than .100" freebore.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
09-26-2012, 03:58 AM
Don't take this the wrong way but I have never seen any printed data to confirm your statement, Throats that long are designed for longer and heavier bullets. On top of this your long throat lengths would throw loading data for lighter bullets way off. Your putting Savage rifles in the same category as Weatherby rifles noted for higher velocities with their longer throats.
HOLLIGER ON .223/5.56 CHAMBERS
http://www.radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm
Lets deal with the "differences" to look at what may or may not be different about them. First remember that SAAMI is a source of suggestion and really has no more power than that, when it comes to setting rules for companies to follow in the USA. CIP is set in stone, law of the land for about everywhere except the USA. NATO is the military, who does anything they please. So what do we know?
SAAMI uses conformal transducers at a specific location from the case head. SAAMI only drills through the chamber and has the case brass push on the transducer. CIP uses a different type of transducer, at a different location from the case head, and they also drill through the brass case, so only the pressure from the propellant pushes on the transducer. We know that different companies use different spec alloys in their cases, and unless I missed it, SAAMI doesn't have a specific set of specs for them when testing pressures. NATO testing places the transducer again in a different location, ahead of the case mouth. This method is also known to produce faster reported pressure rises and typically needs some "filtering" of the data. There is also the US Army method, so technically there are 4 systems....
So while not an exact fit, back to the horsepower example. Put your favorite muscle car on a dyno and measure the horsepower at the rear wheels, then pull the motor and measure horsepower at the crank. The engine isn't making more or less horsepower in either test, you are just measuring it differently and at different places.
Jump to the CIP website, and you'll find that the 5.56*45mm and 223 are interchangeable terms. They are tested in the same chambers and to the same pressures.
So now jump to the SAAMI website and what can we find? http://www.saami.org/PDF/SAAMI_SafetyReminder.pdf
This thread already covered the throat length difference, but SAAMI's caution says nothing of normal operational pressure differences. Only that stuffing bullets into short throats can cause pressure spikes.
As far as the NATO having it's pressure limits raised during development, I'm saddened to find that the Gunzone has gone offline. There was some truly great info covering the development of the cartridge and all of the "issues" around it. Yes, when Remington originally claimed they could launch a certain bullet at a certain speed and pressure, they were a bit shall we say Optomistic, but they also couldn't use the powder used in development in the trials submitted to the military. But then the military changed the bullet requirement, and penetration requirements... The whole development saga is a lesson in military industrial complex and stupidity. What they asked for, and what they later decided they wanted are different things. At any rate that was very early in development and before Remington submitted things to SAAMI. It's a bit moot anyhow, as SAAMI doesn't claim to test what the 5.56 NATO runs in their pressure testing methods; only CIP does. So according to the only folks who claim to test both in the same system, they operate at the same pressures.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Print out those 2 quotes and you'll have printed data. I got that information from Bob Greenleaf and Carl Hildebradt, both retired engineers from Savage. Carl actually designed the first .223 Reamer, with .058" freebore. The idea was rejected in favor of a longer freebore that could be reduced only to .100" after multiple sharpenings. That is why some are longer than others. The notion that longer freebore throws loading data off for lighter bullets is nonsense. I've never seen a loading manual that uses it for any factors other than max magazine length.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
The Factory specs from Remington for the .223 Remington with a 55 Gr FMJ is 3240 FPS from a 24 inch barrel. So it appears that the Wolfe Gold is about 40 FPS to slow.
Below is a link to .223/5.56 chambers and again I have never seen a throat as long as you stated above anywhere in print. And the throat in my Savage .223 was only slightly longer than my AR15 rifles which I would make it .0566 in length.
HOLLIGER ON .223/5.56 CHAMBERS
http://www.radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm
Freebore .0566, Lead Angle 1 deg, 13 min, 80SMK OAL 2.465
"This was designed by a C. Hildebrandt at Savage. I believe it is used in the savage .223 rifles. I do not have this reamer, but it should work well for HP."
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...2016_Web-1.pdf
From Western Powders-
"There is a lot of confusion on this topic, and a lot of bad information being exchanged. Externally, the case dimensions between the SAAMI recognized .223 Remington and the military designated 5.56mm NATO are exactly the same. The two main differences are maximum pressure standards and the chamber dimensions.
Mil-Spec pressure measurements are taken just ahead of the case mouth and work out to a bit more than 62,000 psi using standard SAAMI pressure testing guidelines, which are measured further back on the case body. For comparison, SAAMI’s maximum pressure recommendations for the .223 Remington are about 12% lower at 55,000 psi.
Much more significantly, the leade/throat dimensions in the 5.56mm NATO are considerably longer than the .223 Remington, allowing it to safely chamber a number of different bullet designs. The mismatch between 5.56 NATO cartridges fired in the shorter throated .223 Remington chamber can produce unexpected pressures because the bullet is jammed into the rifling. Conversely, .223 Remington cartridges fired in a 5.56mm NATO chamber may produce lower-than-expected pressures and velocity because of the longer leade.
The Lab"
They correctly state they are taken at different places, but forget to mention the different systems. I find it interesting that they say it "works out to be a bit more". What that implies is that they calculated the number, without actually testing it. Over on the Fire there is a now quite old thread with Ken Ohler, Dr. Bramwell, and Hartmut discussing this.
I agree about the throat differences, as originally submitted to SAAMI. There is a few things about that part of the story, for the more advance reloaders. Remember that NATO did lots of changing to what was finally adopted, the throat length issue is in large part to be able to ensure not stuffing bullets, especially with non-ball ammo. SLAP, tracer, etc. All the strange long projectiles. As far as standard ball ammo, M855 as an example, you will be hard pressed to be able to get that bullet long enough to stuff the lands.
This is where the sticky wicket comes in. If we are talking about surplus ammo, we need to know WHY it got surplussed in the first place; which no one ever tells you. Next is the rifle you are using. With the exception of an old Rem 700 I owned long ago, I've Never had a 223 rifle with a SAAMI short throat; They are always long. Again what mfgr will tell you the specific reamer print they use, and what tollerances they accept, and where your particular rifle fell in the wear range.
Simply from a more practical standpoint, a liability concerned mfgr. is more likely to slightly long-throat a rifle to avoid any "issues". There are millions and millions of surplus rounds of ball ammo sold to the private sector every year, those don't all get shot out of a NATO chamber. There are not millions and millions of rifles blown-up every year due to the throat differences.
So back to the Crux of the thread. Are they different pressure levels? Of the people who specifically state how they test, and what they test; CIP, they are the same pressure level. In the USA they are stated that they are different spec chambers. The authority here being SAAMI does not specifically
say they are different.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
The older M193 5.56 is loaded to 55,000 psi and the newer M855 5.56 is loaded to *58,700 psi, U.S. SAAMI transducer method. (*62,366 psi European CIP NATO EPVAT standards)
5.56x45mm M193 Ball
http://www.orbitalatk.com/defense-sy...0%20(M193).pdf
5.56x45mm M855 Ball
http://www.orbitalatk.com/defense-sy...0%20(M855).pdf
In 1979 when the M885 round was adopted by the U.S.Army the SAAMI issued the .223-5.56 interchangeability warning due to the higher chamber pressure.
Yep, clearly this Hollinger chap is a better source of information on a Savage factory reamer than two retired Savage engineers WHO WERE THERE, especially when he so clearly states that he only "believes" that reamer was used for Savage's and admits he doesn't even have one. Yep! That's about as reliable and trustworthy of a source as CNN.Think I'll stick to listening to someone who has actually checked the freebore on hundreds of Savage .223 barrels over the last 20+ years.
"Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
“Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain
sharpshooter is a faceless screen name telling us "trust me the check is in the mail".
So forgive me but I would like to see some actual Savage printed information on the subject.
After all we have "experts" telling us there is 10,000 psi difference in chamber pressure between the .308 and 7.62 NATO when there is actually less than 2000 psi difference.
Everyone here is a faceless screen name, so in that respect, I'm just as credible as Hollinger or any other source for this "undocumented" data. Maybe if people would actually do their own "hands on" technical research, they could quit believing in blind faith by swallowing all this regurgitated data that comes from questionable sources.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
sharpshooter, I have two AR15 rifles and a Savage .223 and my Savage rifle does not have a throat twice as long as my AR15 rifles. This was checked by another faceless screen name by seating the bullet long and chambering this test case and letting the rifling seat the bullet.
sharpshooter, I'm not trying to be insulting but you are the only one on the Internet saying Savage rifles have throats longer than .100
The SAAMI .223 - 5.56 interchangeability warning came out in 1979 with the introduction of the M885 5.56 round and the lengthened throat on the M16 rifles.
I for one would like to know when Savage lengthened their throats and see actual printed Savage data on the subject.
Bottom line, a Savage reamer print would put a end to this discussion.
If your chamber is shorter than .100", you have the exception, not the rule. If I'm the only one on the internet saying things, it's because I'm the only one measuring such things. Many rifles come through my shop and I have the opportunity to a broad sample of specimens. Savage didn't start chambering the .223 until 1981, so they were aware of the confusion and decided to play it safe by making long freebore right at the get-go.
I'd like to see a reamer print ,also.....but it wouldn't mean anything. If it's like the rest of their prints, they don't necessarily follow the numbers.
I have a stack of factory prints for receivers, barrels, stocks and bolt & action components.....a lot of them have several revisions over the years, half of which were never implemented. Tolerances may or may not be observed, bottom line is if it functions and goes bang...it goes out the door. Sometimes the function is even questionable, but yet is goes out the door. If you've seen half the stuff I have, you'd know why I question printed data, it's not the last word.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
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