At this point......"What Difference does it make"
Thank you Sensei for reminding me that in the world of the internet there are many keyboard snipers...… Almost as many as there are Navy SEALS…Originally Posted by MrFurious
At this point......"What Difference does it make"
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Actually, it does make a difference. I'm not an Operator or Sniper, and I don't play one on TV, but I want to learn to shoot my nice, new Savage .308 at distance with a proper scope. I have zero experience with not only shooting at distances beyond 300M, but with any scope at all beyond 100M.
Math isn't my strong point. Having matching reticles and turrets seems to make sense, and why wouldn't you if you have the opportunity? I'm still confused about the whole MIL vs MOA difference, but from what I've seen, it doesn't really make a difference once you learn one system or another... i.e. 1/4" vs .10" (assuming I have that correct.)
Yes, I understand I'm at a disadvantage shooting this olllllld .308 round over the new-fangled 6.5CM or other, particularly at ranges past 600M, but that is what I have and what I'm committed to.
Best thing you can do is read, read, and read some more to educate yourself. Lots of good YouTube videos out there as well to help you learn. The MOA v. MIL debate has been debated ad nauseam on every gun forum on the internet, so it's just a matter of doing your homework and determining which is the best fit for you or which makes the most sense/is easiest to understand to you. Everybody has their own preference, and asking on a forum such as this will just get you a bunch of biased opinions.
While I'm no fan of the .308 for long-range shooting it's capable and can get the job done as is proven every year at Camp Perry and other such events.
FYI: MIL scopes don't have .10" clicks, they are 1/10th of a MIL clicks. 1 MIL = 3.6", so 1/10th of that would be 0.36".
The 308 is plenty capable if loaded for correctly. If you're shooting factory ammo buy quality match anmo. 175 FGMM or Black Hills etc.
If reloading for it it's hard to beat the Berger 185 Juggernaut. Or the 208 ELD. They'll take a little longer to get to their destination and require a little more elevation, but the high BC pills will match the 6.5 in the wind. The biggest downside to the 308 is recoil in comparison to the 6.5 or 6. I started with 308 and was quite successful, but due to competition went to the 6. Now I'm giving 6.5 a try due to the benefits of barrel life.
As far as scopes go it's based on your budget. Get the best you can and ensure everything is properly mounted nice and straight.
You don't need a high magnification optic. That only comes into play as a nice to have option, but not necessary to be successful. Everyone is going to have a different opinion especially when you start comparing the old guys to the young guys. Those that generally shoot in the woods or on a range. Those that shoot from a bench or prone etc.
While a lot of scopes out there will get the job done there's a number of features that make it easier. And the current top shooters in the world will agree.
1. Clear Glass
2. Repeatable accurate tracking
3. FFP
4. Matching Reticle/Turrets
5. Reticle with built in measurements
The latest PRS ELR match was won with a Khales K624i on a 300Norma Mag shooting factory Lapua Naturalis ammunition. Point is even a match where most targets are beyond 1200yds these are features the top shooters want. The King of 2 Miles competition is coming up this weekend. You will see the same. Top shooters in the PRS look to the Gen2 Razor, NF ATACR F1, S&B's, And Khales. There's a few others out there and lots of lower budget optics, but the ones that are successful all have the 5 features I mentioned above. A good quality scope should be like putting on glasses for the first time when you look through it!
Now going back to budget. I started with an SWFA fixed 12x with mil turrets and the mil-quad reticle. For $300 it was plenty clear and tracked accurately as far as I shot it with good dope it was plenty accurate for a new shooter.
When I upgraded to the Gen1 Vortex Razor low and behold my scores improved and my consistency went up. It was the same when I upgraded to the Gen2 Razor I still run today.
Point being is that a better optic makes shooting more fun and much easier simply because you can see better.
So get the best you can and look for those features. I've shot enough different venues and have seen the improvement of hundreds of shooters and what works best. Every time this topic gets asked there's an argument.
The best thing you can do is try to find a reputable match venue within driving distance and go check out what shooters are topping their rifles with!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
^^^There you go, along with what Mr. Furious said.
I am sorry I let an old braggart get under my skin.
My advice is to find a F-Class match at a club close to you. You will see the 308 in action. There will also be the fancy calibers there too. Attend either as a spectator or if you feel comfortable bring your scoped rifle, a bipod, rear rest, something to lay on. and compete. Talk to competitors. Ask questions. You will find that most competitors are very friendly and willing to share a wealth of information. There is a lot you can learn and observe at a match.
PS.
My comment on internet snipers was certainly not directed at youCharlie98. We are here to learn and share real life experiences.
I was about to engage in internet stupidity from a previous comment that referenced something I said. MrFurious' comment reminded that I should not engage. I too am neither an operator, sniper, or SEAL....
As for .308 factory match ammo, Buffalo Bore makes a good one also. Their marketing propaganda claims it as a "sniper" round (which I think is silly and ignorant, but whatever). I have not shot any for a few years, since I started handloading, but I can tell you that it shot as good if not better than Federal Ultra Match (175 gr.) in a couple of my rifles. Of, course, someone else's experience with it may vary. Just sharing this info for others who may want to try it out.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
OOPS..... I meant Federal Gold Medal Match, not Ultra. Ultra is the small bore ammo I shoot in my benchrest H&R Model 12. WHICH by the way is topped with a 32X SII Sightron.....
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
Since your post, there has been some good advice, and MrFurious gave you the technical part of the difference. Here is the practical bit, this assumes you would match your turrets and reticles.
MOA - The distance between your dots, or hashes in the reticle is 1 moa. Your turrets would likely be 1/4 moa, meaning you have 4 clicks of adjustment between the dots.
MIL - The distance between dots is 1 Mil. Most turrets are 1/10 mil, so you have 10 clicks of adjustment between the dots.
The part everyone screws up, is the simplicity, at least of a FFP. On a matched reticle/turret FFP scope, the reticle is ALWAYS the same size relative to the target. Turn the magnification up and the target and reticle both grow at the same rate. So the specific linear distance on target you missed by is irrelevant. Focus on how far off you were in the reticle, then adjust accordingly with whatever system you use.
The problem with the whole rant of "2" is 2"", that ASSumes you can accurately discern what 2" looks like at 300 yards, or 1,000 yards. If using the reticle all you need to do is look at how many mils, or moa you missed by and adjust. The reticle is your measuring stick, not a linear measurement that you can't do without going to the target.
Whether the Creed, 308 or something else, get yourself a GOOD ballistic calculator; it will help you learn quickly. Personally I like Shooter, but use what you wish. You will learn that it really isn't that hard to get bullets where you want, and most of the time you don't need a canted base rail. Most folks don't really know how much drop it takes to get somewhere, how much the atmosphere plays with that number, or how little adjustment many scopes actually offer. The PA scopes have as much adjustment as some of the best Nightforce scopes.
If you want to get REALLY far, then bullet choice becomes important; but not just sexy BC. Many bullets use a steep tail angle to get a sexy BC, which assures that they can never safely cross Trans-sonic. When the atmosphere changed at Camp Perry, that's when everyone realized that the sexy BC 168gr Sierra wouldn't cross trans-sonic. That is also the specific reason why the military gave Sierra free-range with their doppler system to create the 175 SMK. Hornady can caim they have a new super awesome magic system, but that stuff has been used for many many decades.
Do a little digging and you'll see some of my posts where I shoot the 308 to a mile, The bullets are going slower than snot, but will easily get there pointy side forward.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Just my opinion
You aren't planning to be a PRS competitor right? You just want an optic you can learn to shoot your 308 at 600 yrds and eventually to 1000?
Age old arguments on all the shooting forums.. mil vs moa front focal plane vs second focal plane
Lets look at who uses what
Mil-FFP the military, the tactical crowd and competitor's who need rapid range estimates
MOA-SFP target shooters and most hunters
I say pick the one you are most comfortable with. Both work just fine. Lots of.strong opinions out there. Don't let them decide for you
Lots of.good scopes out there. Lots of junk too. And a few exceptional ones. I am old and need all the.magnification i can get. When i was 20 a 10X was all i needed. Now my target scopes top magnification is in the 40 to 60 power. All depends on what you pocketbook can stand. I would not pick something with less than a top magnification of 24X.
Low end vortex PRS or Luepold 3i and up from there
New Member
Well weve both been around here long enough that you should know better than to make those comments.
I have never on a single occaision attempted to call attention to my personal shooting ability, or any other ability I might or might not have.
Never posted pics of groups ive shot, guns I own or built, or animals ive shot, so I will simply let what you said speak for itself.
By and large ive attempted to encourage (average Joe) into believing he can do it if he tries, because I know for a fact he can, and the story of my 15 year old grand daughter was an attempt to illustrate that.
As for the purchase of a (new) scope, I haven't as I recall, attempted to encourage one brand over another, other than to mention the problem with the (one) Vortex) we have.
I have not said a good quality scope with matching turret and reticle is a bad idea, ive simply attempted to convey they aren't necessary at least for everybody, and especially if you understand how to use the dial.
I also firmly believe a good used scope is a good idea for most shooters, many of my own have been just that.
I have a 5 year old Nightforce NXS 8x32 on one of my guns, and it dosent have matching turrets/reticle.
I also have a 8.5x25 Leupold with 1/4 min clicks and a varmit hunter reticle on another gun.
(For what we do), which is strictly hunt, and casual long range rock/target shooting, I personaly see no real advantage of one scope over the other.
In fact, I had a vintage 6x24 Bausch&Lomb Balvar target scope with a Kuharsky micrometer rear mount on the gun now having the Nightforce, and I'm not totally convinced changing scopes was a worthwhile idea for me.
Has anybody here compared (clean) 50s and 60s era Bausch&Lomb optics to modern stuff ?
Probably not, but again stop around the camp, and ill let you do that.
Lone Wolf has just posted very good information, and coming from an experienced target shooter it would be wise to listen to what he said.
Visiting sanctioned matches of any type is an excellent thing to do.
Realize one thing when you do however, and I say this with tongue in cheek.
You wont be finding many there, who are just there for a fun day shooting and hanging out with friends.
Its about winning, truth be told, its all about winning, at least with most of them.
They will be doing whatever it takes to win if they can afford to, and some will even if they cant.
So naturaly the very latest and the very best optics will be a high priority.
Read what he said and it proves my point, that being that scopes have improved his shooting score, and that's a good thing, (for him).
Five or six years ago we bought a Savage I believe FCP or something like that for my grandson.
It was listed as a police model, fairly heavy with a detachable mag, fluted barrel, and a muzzle brake.
It came in 308 and 338 Lapua, and we got him the 308.
This was not intended as a carrying around gun for him, simply a rock shooting gun .
I picked the gun up and asked what mount and scope they had they could put right on it.
The guy recommended a DNZ mount, and after looking at it I agreed so he put it on the gun.
I picked out a Nikon Buckmaster varieable scope, which as I recall goes to about 16 power.
When I got back to camp I cleaned the gun and loaded up a few rounds for it.
First group of 5 shots could have been covered by a nickle, which for me is better than good.
One of the best groups I ever shot with any gun.
The mountain straight across from our camp offers ranges from 400 to just over 900 yds.
We can get to 1450 off to the left, and out to over 3400 off to the right, which weve never attempted to do.
That kid has sent 100s of rounds thru that gun at rocks up to 900 over there with no issues at all with the scope.
He came very close to taking a porcupine off a tree branch at just about max distance, and if the wind wasent blowing as hard he no doubt would have.
But he did make porkey back up and get behind the tree.
A 308 can teach you an awfull lot about shooting within its limits, and most of our practice shooting is done with 308s.
I personaly have a 700 Rem with a varmit weight 26" barrel with a Leupold 3.5x10 VX3 scope on it, but it dosent shoot like that Savage.
To the OP, just put a scope on the gun and go shoot it.
If you don't have access to a chronagraph, just pick a close number for velocity and go to a site like JBM and make up just a basic click chart.
You will be shocked how well you will do right from the get go, and you can upgrade the chart as you go by shooting, which is the best information anyway.
Its so easy even kids can do it. lol
^^^That's all good, Yobuck, But, if a guy is going to go out and buy a scope with mil dots or MOA dots, it only makes good sense to get one that has turrets to match. Being new, he might not know enough to look for that detail and end up getting one that's crossed-up. I've done it, and it was a mistake. Bought it on line thinking it was a good deal and returned itr as soon as I saw what it was. Having turrets and reticles that did not match made it not such a good deal anymore.
Of course, encouraging someone to just go out and shoot without getting too bogged down trying to decide exactly what equipment to buy (and therefore never actually get out and shoot) is always a good thing. Discouraging someone from asking good questions to get an idea of what to look for and what to avoid is not a good thing. That said, if you're gonna confound good advice offered when it's asked for, please have a reason other than "if you know how to use the tools you're given, you don't need anything different that what you have, 'cuz in the old days, when men were men, you learned how to make do."
THat's all I have to say on this topic.
Just to restate... I already have a scope on it... a 3-9x? Bushnell, and I've got about 300rds through the rifle so far. I'm not a noob to shooting, but I am to LR shooting, and to optics. Because I am older, and my eyes suck, I do really need good glass and decent magnification. I do not intend to compete. As far as ammo... my handloads outshot the 168grn FGMM I use as a barometer in my .30 rifles, I've been reloading for almost 30 years. I didn't realize the Sierra 175 had a different design, I'll have to give them a try. I've never gone above 168grn because neither my M1 or M1a are really designed for it; the thought of a 208grn bullet is Fantasy Land to me... but I might give them a test-drive, too.
Blackthorn, no offense taken. I use that term a lot because it seems like everyone is trying to be someone; last week at the 100yd rifle range, there were 3 guys running around with assault vests on, shooting AR's that looked like they weighed 20# with all the crap on them. I just want to poke holes in paper at longer distances than I'm used to, but I want to learn to do it well... and correctly.
Reading on the internet and watching YouTube... and you think there's a difference of opinion here? :D So far I've gotten some really good info here at SS, and now I know what I need to be researching and looking for.
As it turns out, I have dibbs on a used Burris 4x20 scope that I think will fit the bill.
Depends on the twist rate of your barrel. In my somewhat limited experience, the 175 grain SMK's seem to do best in a 1 in 10" twist or tighter. If I remember correctly, the M1A has a 1 in 12".
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
Just my opinion
You aren't planning to be a PRS competitor right? You just want an optic you can learn to shoot your 308 at 600 yrds and eventually to 1000?
Age old arguments on all the shooting forums.. mil vs moa front focal plane vs second focal plane
Lets look at who uses what
Mil-FFP the military, the tactical crowd and competitor's who need rapid range estimates
MOA-SFP target shooters and most hunters
I say pick the one you are most comfortable with. Both work just fine. Lots of.strong opinions out there. Don't let them decide for you
Lots of.good scopes out there. Lots of junk too. And a few exceptional ones. I am old and need all the.magnification i can get. When i was 20 a 10X was all i needed. Now my target scopes top magnification is in the 40 to 60 power. All depends on what you pocketbook can stand. I would not pick something with less than a top magnification of 24X.
Low end vortex PRS or Luepold 3i and up from there
My Savage has a 1:10, IIRC. The M1a is more limited by the gas system with heavy bullets, not necessarily the barrel twist. People shoot 175's, but running them long-term requires some adjustments to the gas system, or just running them at lower velocity. Trying to hotrod 175's in an M1a will usually result in broken stuff.
I started with 168's because I already have a good stock of them, and some known load data for them. The Savage does NOT like ~150grn bullets...
Yes sir, same here. My Savage has a 1 in 10" twist and loves the 175 SMK's. Bergers have shot well out of it also, but I have te tweak the loading just a bit. I have not tried anything heavier yet, but I do plan to experiment with my handloads and heavier bullets in the near future.....
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
Well what can I say, other than that was just another uncalled for cheap shot, and hopefully others will recognize it as that also.
I hope the OP got enough information to help him make a choice on his scope purchase, because that is the main issue here.
I also think that due to the rather recent influx of people becoming interested in the various aspects of long range shooting, it would be a good thing for a topic on scopes be started.
Not just a what scope do I need or should i buy type topic as this one was, but an in depth discussion on how they actually work, along with the various reticle and adjustment options, and the advantages each might have for certain type applications.
I was looking for a sticky of some sort before I posted, I think it would be a good idea. On one of the computer forums I frequent, they have a set of questions you copy/paste/answer as part of a post on a new system build... even something like 5 or 6 questions to get the basic info from the OP would probably help a lot and cut down on 'we need more info' posts, and it's why I structured my OP in that manner.
I go back to basic features. I am only a few years into shooting at distances past 100 yards. Do yourself a favor.
1. FFP
2. Matching turrets/reticle.
3. Target style turrets.
4. Zero stop if you can get it.
5. The best glass you can afford.
I think although there are many opinions, most will agree with the above list.
For what he's looking to do I agree with everything but #1.
Everybody seems to think they need a FFP reticle all the sudden. Unless you're using your reticle to range and determine distance, the only thing a FFP does for you is drain more money from your wallet. It's also a hindrance if you're a precision target shooter (F-clas, benchrest, etc) as it makes the reticle larger/thicker as the magnification goes up, and depending on the reticle type and brand of scope it may be completely useless when set to the lowest magnification because it gets so small in the field of view. Doesn't make a lick of difference when a hit's a hit anywhere on a 12x12" steel plate, but if you're shooting paper for group or score it makes a world of difference. The OP said he's shooting at known distances which usually means a range, so no need to be able to range (he can still range with a SFP reticle at the specified ranging magnification when needed). Usually known distances also means he could be shooting at paper or steel targets.
FFP's are just the current fad, and much like bull barrels for AR's it will likely start to fade after a few more years. They have their place, but far too many think they need one when they would really be better served by a SFP scope for what they're doing.
Of course, if you want to avoid 3/4 of the scope stuff that's driving you crazy and instantly narrow down your options, choose to go with a fixed 10-16x scope. Military snipers have used them for decades, they're more robust and reliable as they have fewer moving parts, being fixed power they completely eliminate the need to choose between a FFP or SFP reticle, and IMO learning to shoot at distance with less magnification makes you a much better shooter in the long run. You can also often get much higher quality glass for the same money in a fixed power scope verses a similarly priced variable power, and you will find that with higher quality glass you don't need as much magnification.
Can't recall if you stated a budget price in an earlier post, so I will assume $1,000 for the sake of this post. I would recommend you seriously take a look at fixed power scopes from the SWFA SS line, the IOR Valdada Tactical models, or the Sightron SIII 10x42mm. All of these options are top quality scopes that have been around for years and are well proven.
Just something to consider...
I have a Sightron SIII 10x42 as mentioned above. I think this is one of the best scopes out there, period. For what it's worth, if I had to pick only one scope to use on any given rifle of known accuracy for a SHTF type situation, this is definitely it.
Also worth mentioning here..... I had a 10x Super Sniper. It was a good scope, but I sold it with a rifle as a package deal a couple years back. The 10x Sightron is better in every category across the board. It's also almost twice the price, but absolutely worth it. You definitely get what you pay for.....
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
@Mr. Furious.
I would respectfully disagree that FFP scopes are a fad.
I frequently shoot alone, as I enjoy my range time as my quiet time. A FFP scope allows me to shoot at a lower magnification level (which you support) spot my own hits/misses and use my reticle to make easy adjustments. This would not be possible with s SFP scope unless used at maximum magnification with a limited field of view.
I believe that one of the reasons the military has used fixed power scopes for so long is for their increased durability and to allow the reticle sub tensions to always be correct. (Like a FFP variable scope)
I rarely shoot past 3-500 yards but I have not problem shooting paper for groups at those distances with FFP scopes and have only shoot steel at distances beyond 500.
I would agree that if you desire to shoot paper for groupings at 600-1000 the thickness of the reticle may be more of a factor.
I would agree with the fixed power scope, and also with Mr Mc Furious opinion on the FFP/SFP situation.
I have a fixed 10 power Bushnell tacticle scope on my 223 Savage model 12 and couldn't be happier with it.
Current price would be under $300 new and it has a mil dot reticle.
Also have a Sightron varieable on a 22/250 Ackley model 12 that never moves off 10 power.
I bought that used for $250 from a guy who needed a new Nightforce.
It has 1/8 minit clicks, but who cares, I don't count clicks anyway just minits, and the large numbers or a full rev on the dial produces the same as a 1/4 minit scope.
But, an 1/8 minit dial could be very important for a small bore competitor.
Zero stop, good idea, (But), you still gotta remember to dial back, its not automatic, and they can be pricey.
There are several little tiny allen head screws holding the turret cap on most scopes.
On some you just pick up the cap and rotate it.
You need to loosen those and place the dial on zero, then retighten them after your initial sighting in at 100 yds.
On at least a Leupold, and possibly others as well, you can cut a thin slice from a 12 gauge shotgun shell case
and install that on the turret for a zero stop.
Nightforce charges close to $300 for a zero stop, Bruce Baer who is a stocking dealer, charges $35.
But you gotta remember to dial back with his also lol, and sooner or later everybody forgets.
Best to do as little dialing as possible, especially when hunting.
I would suggest looking up, and reading up, on a (Horus reticle) and form a picture of that in your mind.
Remember, that same principle applies to any scope, regardless of type reticle, type of dial, or focal plane.
Hold on the target where the last bullet hit for your follow up shot, and forget the dial.
Unless of coarse your a precision target shooter.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks