Reply With QuoteNeat SL, What dies?
Hello all, I officially embarked on my first wildcat journey today. I took a sporter 1:9 .223 barrel and shortened it .635" and chambered it in ".223 short" it's essentially a .223 remington shortened .625 or a shortened .221 fireball which ever way you want to look at it.
I have been wanting to try something like this for years after the 22lr drought. I contacted the developer of the cartridge on grey beard outdoor's and he was kind enough to allow me usage of his reamer. I will also be making a 5.5" AR barrel with hopes of making a PDW style upper. I submitted 3 stamps last July so i'm hoping to see them here within the next month. I will also shorten this barrel and thread it for one of my suppressors once cleared.
I wanted something my kids could shoot and plan to try cast bullets from my 55gr lee mold at subsonic velocities. I doubt it will work as a repeater and I hear cases will fall into the action so we'll see how that pans out as I experiment with it. the case length is 1.25" and has a capacity between a 22 hornet and 218 bee. I also plan to try subsonic loads from the AR barrel as it will have a 1:7 twist
9mm, .223 short with 80gr nosler, .223
rechambered barrel
Neat SL, What dies?
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
i'm getting 500 cases formed by the cartridge developer. then I got 22tcm dies for bullet seating and if I have to bump the shoulder from time to time. I also am in the process of modifying a .223 remington lee collet die for neck sizing. I figure i'll run my progressive for the ar starting with a standard .223 die to decap/resize the base of the cartridge followed by the 22tcm die setup to bump the shoulder/resize the neck.
If it works out how I like i'll order the forming dies from ch4d
What kind of load development have you done? Bullet weight, powder charge, etc. Velocities? I'm a fan of the 221 fireball, it's probably wildcat enough for me, but this newly developed cartridge is certainly intriguing.
And what is this new cartridge designated?
it's called the .223 short V1 it's not a sammi cartridge by any means. developed by a few guys on grey beard outdoors. I literally just machined the barrel this afternoon so havent gotten around to screwing it on yet.
the other end users were getting 2900-3k ft/sec with the 30-40gr class of bullets from a 22" barrel
I would like to try the 34gr varmint nightmare in the ar and possibly the savage but my main appeal for the savage was cast bullets over a few grains of titegroup for a cheap quiet load for my kids to shoot to their hearts content. I had to slow them down on the 22's due to the shortage and I just can't bring myself to replenish the stock for 10 cents a round. I can load a brick of these with cast bullets for 3-4 cents a round and some time.
At those velocities, you are duplicating the 22 Hornet. I realize it is not AR compatible. I bet with 50-55gr bullets, it is more like a WMR. Either way, looks like a fun project.
The recent 22 rimfire shortage, is history repeating itself. When clinton was president 22 rimfire disappeared from store shelves. This cartridge is a viable, and refreshing change. Should be an excellent change from rimfire to centerfire. Have fun
Ackley was right all along
in essence yes a modern hornet using easily obtainable and more durable brass. oh and rimless. at a little over 18gr h2o capacity I think it will be quite a bit more than the WMR playing with QL it shows 2550 ft/sec with 55's and 2600 with 50's from a 22" barrel at 55k psi using aa1680.Originally Posted by handirifle
as for being AR compatible i'm actually going to chamber a barrel for my AR and give it a test drive. there is a guy already running a 22 reed express and 22tcm on the ar platform using ppsh 43 mags with a mag adapter. I made a dummy round (the picture in the first post) using a 80gr nosler and stacked some .223 rounds on bottom and top. and smacked it around to unsettle it from the rear of the mag and nothing crazy happened. cycled them through by hand with the firing pin removed and it fed fine from a standard magpul mag. it even suprisingly chambered and extracted (the base diameters are the same)
With the AR i'm aiming the pdw route. super short barrel (5-6") 1:7 twist supersonic from ppsh mags (1.36 coal) with 30-40gr bullets and subs from standard mags suppressed. like a mini blackout persay.
( I took a sporter 1:9 .223 barrel and shortened it .635" ) I'am guessing that you will be working with a Savage action, being that this is the Savage forum??
If so and that's your plan,you can forget about getting it to feed on a Savage action. Been there, tried that, more than once. Only chance to get anywhere is to single feed. Pull the ejector rod and spring and the fired case will stay on the bolt head till you pick it off. The short case will pop off the bolt head as soon as it starts out of the chamber. Single feeding is your friend!!
I've built and am working on a necked down to 20 TCM round. OAL is just at 1.00". Tried the "short" Fireball but it started from a 20 VT case. The "short" worked but IMHO, making brass wasn't worth the effort when the TCM has better brass from the start.
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
already planned on single feeding it from the word go and remember hearing about the ejector removal. but yes it will be on a savage short action. The guys over at saubier.com are really loving the 22tcm case. I wouldn't mind a 17 tcm truth be told. what kind of velocities are you seeing with the 20 tcm? when you say OAL of 1" thats just the case correct?
Correct. 1" OAL is the "case length". As far as FPS? No idea. Havn't loaded any rounds and won't till I get my chambered barrels back. At that point, I'll get some fired brass and have dies cut. I had planned on building a "17 TCM" at the same time but figured I'd better start with the 20 caliber and see if I liked it before going to the 17 caliber. A couple of Guys @ Saubier are working with the TCM. I just started at the bottom and built my way up. Dies can be an issue so you have to go slow to avoid issues when making brass.
The TCM design is "proprietary" so getting reamers can be a challenge. I built a dummy round in 20 caliber and that was used that for reamer specs.
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
Nor_Cal_Mikie sounds like a sweet project! are you buying reamers for all these projects of yours? or are you making d-reamers? when you finish up do you sell off the reamer or hold them for safe keepings? did a little snooping around on Saubier and found you on there. noticed you also made a 17 vha. how did that work out? didn't catch if that was on a savage action or something else? I know PTG makes a 5.7 bolt face. I was actually going to try the .17 v-raptor that foxhunter designed. he sold the reamer to georgeld and about the time I was going to get around to asking him to chamber a barrel thats when George got pretty sick. fox's was based off the 5.7x28 case which I bought 1k of to try the cartridge out but never came to fruition.
I had a 17 hmr years back and enjoyed it but want something even faster/flatter now. the watching squirrels flying through the scope is a blast!
When I start out to build a Wildcat, I start at the beginning. Check out what's been said about that round or something close to it. My goal is to pull the trigger and see the bullet making holes on the target. As far as accuracy, every one of my rigs will make a five shot group that can be covered with a dime. If it isn't that accurate, I'll loose interest real fast. Funny thing is, if it is that accurate, I tend to move on to something else anyway.
The 17 VHA was a starting point BUT, I got sidetracked when I started playing with the TCM. The 20 VT"short" was/is a learning experience. Making brass was a real PITA!! The TCM brass took care of 99.99% of the forming problems.
I'll build a dummy round to the specs that I want then ship it off and have a reamer cut to those specs. That way, there's no excuse about getting the specs that I want. Each reamer is cut with zero freebore. I learned a long time ago that the throat will wear faster than I want on most chambers so I go zero and can go to heavier bullets as it wears. That way I can jam into the lands. Nothing worse than trying to reach the lands with your favorite bullet and not have enough bullet contact in the neck. We learn as we go or that's the way it's suppose to be??
The VHA got put aside while I got involved with the TCM. Had PT&G cut me a couple of bolt heads without a ejector rod for the VHA. And I build on Savage actions. All set up as single shots or dedicated single shot Models.
If you've got any questions, just ask. All of us need to share our experience, good or bad. I've found that some of the bad experience just HAS TO BE TRIED by some folks to see for myself. Tough going sometimes but at least you can say "been there, tried that".
I still have my VHA and my TCM reamers. I had a reamer cut for the 20 VT. It was cut with a .234 neck and zero freebore. .234 neck so no neck turning was needed. Worked like a champ!! Put it up for sale and Eddie Harren jumped on that one. Only cut one chamber with it.
I ship my work off to NY so I don't do any Smithing/chamber work except spin the barrels on and build the rigs the way I want them. Barrels and bolt head swaps are almost a daily thing. Buying barrels and getting them chambered takes the most time. I've learned to be very patient and the work I get back is nothing but the best. I have found that the price of reamers has gone up in the last few years. Use to get a custom reamer for $150.00 but now, $200.00 is closer to cost. And the wait time can be looong. That's where the "patience" comes it, Mike.
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
Thanks again N_C_M i'll have to keep an eye on your progress with the 20 and possibly 17 tcm's.
my answer to this prob. was simply a 5.7x28 in a rifle barrel itll load from 500 to about 2500 fps simple pick up brass everyehere no forming and great fun to shoot.
You have recreated the .218 Bee, which is the same 18gr. powder capacity, but in a rimless case that's easy to get. (.218 Bee brass has been hen's teeth for years now.) A fine little cartridge, but being rimmed it's not suitable for semi-autos.
I considered doing the same or was really wanting a .17 v-raptor (5.7 necked to .17 cal) two things made me shy away from it. one I hear primer pockets were an issue with the cartridge and second was the guy I was going to have chamber a barrel for me got very sick so I let it fade away.
interesting. that's good to know. that will give me a baseline to look at for load data. this cartridge should be able to exceed bee velocities due to the 55k psi parent case.
thank you
p.s. the speer fp bee bullet and hornady xtp bee bullet are both on my list of wants to try.
Yes indeed, but not as much as you might think. SAAMI rates the Bee at 46,000 psi, but that 46K number is constrained by the fact that Winchester introduced the Bee for their lever action rifles which were based on the old 1892 design. It's fair to say that some Bee shooters who had stronger rifles probably loaded well beyond that in the bad old days. Once brass was available, varmint rifles based on Winchester High Walls and Sharps Borchardts started appearing, and the boys went to town. At that time there was no .222, or .223. There was the Hornet, and then a big jump to the 219 Zipper, unless you fooled with wildcats like the Lovell 2R. (Also 18 grains water capacity, and one of my favorites.) They pushed 'em hard. I've computed some Lovell loads at 60,000 psi! No wonder they only got three loadings out of their brass!
4227 or 4198 would have been the only powder choices back then. Today we have lots more. Lil-Gun works wonders in the Hornet, and ought to do well in your wildcat, too. I've been in poor health for a while now, so I haven't been out with it in my Lovells. I would not push the twist faster than 14. This little case hasn't the capacity for bullets heavier than maybe 50 grains.
so a little update. finally put together the rifle with the re-chambered barrel and so far i'm impressed. I shortened the barrel to 18.5" as I plan to thread it for my suppressor once PTG takes their sweet time making a range rod (6-8 week made to order for .22 centerfire....seriously???)
anywhoo finally started working up some loads based off of quickload and comparing with 22 hornet and bee load data. and this little guy is efficient! I bought 600 of those armscor 40gr jhp bullets for roughly 7 cents a piece after shipping. and with 3.5gr of titegroup i'm getting 1700 ft/sec and about 1.5 moa (4gr was right at 2000 ft/sec but was like buckshot pattern lol) and for the impressive #'s with 13gr of lil gun i'm getting 3150 ft/sec and right at moa (not bad for a sporter barrel)
I also had a few 40gr v-max's left over and ran those up to 13.5gr and was suprised with a average of 3260 ft/sec again from a 18.5" barrel and almost half the powder as a .223. the report is also pretty mild way less than a .223. (the titegroup loads were rimfire quiet!)
so far i'm happy. planning on trying the lee 55gr cast bullets once I get around to casting them i'm also thinking of machining the gas check shank off to make it a flat base and shave off a grain or two from the weight.
best part is I still am not seeing any signs of pressure. well very faint cratering but they have been doing that since 11.4gr (is this common with the .223 bolt face? my .308 doesn't do it is why I ask) i've also noticed that lil gun does better with more pressure. my ES/SD and groups were poopy until I hit 12.8gr and they have been getting progressively better as the charge weight has increased.
Good show~! Not exactly a .22 RF replacement until you get some 1400 fps loads with cast bullets, but that ought to be pretty easy. Try Red Dot for those light loads. It's bulkier, and seemed to me to ignite more consistently. Less position sensitive. Although Bullseye also did well.
BTW I found that a 53 grain cast bullet worked OK in a 14 inch twist. A reworked Lee Bator was the mould. I think it's nominally 50, but I reamed the gas check lip off it. NOS moulds has some good .22 moulds.
Cratering is more a function of the fit of the firing pin in the breech face in the particular rifle. Trust your Quickload. My model says that your 40 grain bullet load can top out a little above 15 grains. You aren't even close yet.
Lil'Gun has a "fat tail" to the pressure-time curve. It works great in small rifles, because bullet velocity is a function of the integral under that curve. Lil'Gun keeps pushing a bit longer, so more velocity at lower peak pressures. And yes, I found that it wants to be up above 20,000 psi before it really performs.
Interesting info Coach! I have learned to trust QL but don't consider it gospel either.
I measured my cases after fire forming and I was off on capacity. these are actually at 16.3gr avg so more of a 22k hornet than the bee. so getting close to max per QL but oddly the velocities aren't tracking as close as usual. I'm getting almost 100 ft/sec higher than calculated but it could have something to do with that progressive burn your mentioning.
lol yeah not quite 22lr territory right now, just can't seem to get the time to whip out a batch of bullets to try them out. I don't think I've fired up my pot in close to 9 months! missed the best casting season. going to be getting hot soon.(have a 1yr old that's been taking up most of my time. not a bad thing :) )
Great read! Those are much higher velocities than I would've expected. I may have missed it but have you considered making your own brass using the same method as forming 300 blackout from 223 brass? I've done it just for fun and it's super easy. Cut to approximate length, resize, and trim! Obviously you're moving a lot more brass during the resize step than I am with 300blk, but with the right lube you should be good. I suppose it may be a lot of extra wear and tear on your custom resizing die though.
Disclaimer! I have no experience making my own wildcats other than the simple 300blk process described above.
On a separate note, you may want to look at using a pistol length gas system with an adjustable block to get the AR to run. Maybe you can also design a block (I'm thinking delrin or polymer) to fit the rear of the buffer tube to keep the bolt from cycling all the way to the rear. Of course then you'd also need to figure out a way to customize your mags so that the bullets would stay seated all the way to the front as well. 20rd GI mags with their straight body should be friendly for slipping something in there to size. Fun project!
This is actually done just like 300blk. it's a straight form, chop off excess, trim c&d, expand and load. the neck dimensions on the reamer were setup to accommodate the thick necks so no reaming or turning is required.
exnay on a pistol length gas (would leave no dwell time as the barrel will barely be beyond the gas block. i'm actually going to try a 2-2.5" gas system with a shortened gas tube. as for the gas block I will only go that route if I have to. i'm hoping to tailor the load to the gun rather than the gun to the load. and using a suppressor will hopefully help with subsonic operation.
not concerned with a buffer stop as with subs it's only .400 shorter than a .223 and hoping it will work from unmodified magazines(the feed by hand very nicely even if their all the way to the front. the long 80gr bullet keeps the case in the lips pretty well. with the supers i'm going to run ppsh mags with a mag adapter.
Got my 20 TCM chambered barrels back from the smith. While I was waiting I was able to pick up a BUNCH of new 22 TCM brass. If anybody needs any, let me know.
My plan was to fire a few rounds, send the fired brass out and have custom dies made but I found a better way. And less $$ too!! Found a 22 TCM "bushing die" so it's a matter of setting it up with the proper bushings, loading up and going shooting.
While I was necking down a few cases, I ran into some 5.7 X 28 brass. Couldn't figure out why they wouldn't fit the shell holder. I remember now that a few pieces were sent to my to see what I thought about them. I prefer the TCM.
The New factory 22 TCM brass is a dream to work with. Should have dies in less than a week.
In the last few weeks, the rim fire bug bit. No competition, just gun building. Ordered up a Ruger 10/22 BR stock from a "inventory list" about a week ago and to my surprise, it showed up today. They didn't say yes or no if it was still in stock like I asked, it just showed up. Better than not getting it at all? Bedded the barrel and action this afternoon.
Got a heavy barrel about a week back and while I was ordering dies this morning, loaded up on ammo at the same time. Got enough things to keep me busy for a while and out of the bars.
Lots of finish work to do on the laminated stock but not as much as some that I've received.
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks