Hello All, been trying to search for the answer to no avail, what i'm looking for is, do you guys know if it's legal to run a rifle reciever in a stock that has been cut behind the pistol grip thus making a rear grip pistol? assuming the OAL is kept to 26+in and the barrel length is 16+ inches. I know it's done frequently with shotguns (stock removed and pistol grip installed) just couldn't find a clear answer on a "rifle"
I think the problem here is not the length... OAL and barrel length is good, but, as I understand it, ATF defines a rifle as something ("something" not their word) as "...designed to be fired from the shoulder." If you remove the shoulder piece from the stock, I believe it falls under "other" which requires NFA registration/regulation or whatever you do with the odd-ball weapons.
i.e., because it no longer is designed to fire from the shoulder, it is not a rifle. That's the kicker , in my book.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/whic...ated-under-nfa
Which firearms are regulated under the NFA?
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
(6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and
(8) a destructive device.
[26 U.S.C. 5845; 27 CFR 479.11]
Last
I read this to allow making a rifle with a barrel over 16" long and total length over 26" long; and have been making and shooting such for several years.
Repeated requests to ATF offices for rulings about this have had NO response.
joe b.
This is how I read it as well. just seeing if others have done the same.Originally Posted by joeb33050
I have recently wanted to get into handgun hunting (all of the thrill of archery hunting without the startup cost/ constant training/conditioning) and I've really seen some nice rear grip savages over the years. I wanted to get into a contender but man those things have gotten pricey! so a rear grip savage would be the cheapest route for me. it would literally only cost me a stock (thinking boyds pro varmint and chop/contour pistol grip in a cool laminate color) then I would just need the barrel. I figure I'd build it off a long action to add some length to get me above 26" then buy a inexpensive take off barrel in say .308 (did savage make factory .338 federal barrels?) then I could chop it to ~14" and thread it, make a radial style brake and pin/weld it to keep it legal. I have a 300WM barrel laying around I could use as well just down load it.
If I get drawn for elk this year I'd really like to give handgun hunting a shot.
On a side note. What parts would one need to convert from RH to Left Hand bolt, right side eject? just the handle maybe the bolt body? or are the LH receivers different?
^^^and yet, the following is their definiton of a rifle:
Quote:
"2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull of the trigger.11 A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length."
Judging from Joeb's reported experience and discussions on other forums, the ATF does not answer this question. Perhaps they simply choose not to answer because the law does not address it. They don't want to go on record stating one way or another.
One could argue that if the law does not specify whether it is an NFA item, then it is NOT an NFA item. It probably needs to be registered as a pistol. The Savage "Striker" is a pistol.
If you take your RIFLE and cut the stock, you have # 4 = a weapon MADE FROM A RIFLE
right?
Maybe?
Not if it's overall length is more than 26" which was originally specified as the OP's intent.
Sorry I wasn't clear, my meaning was if you make #4 larger than the dimensions in the statute, NFA doesn't apply. (made from rifle + not smaller than 26" = no tax stamp)
The original paperwork defines the action as either a rifle or other. If it was purchased as a rifle it.needs to stay a rifle.
How many out there actually keep a copy of the paperwork you fill out when you purchase a gun?
If the OAL is 26" and the barrel length is "at least" 16", it's still a rifle, no matter what it looks like.
Check out the BATF paper dated July 25, 2011. That's what I go by. I keep a copy in my range bag just in case there's ever any questions.
Any measurements shorter than stated and you'll have to deal with the BATF and get yourself a Tax Stamp.
My rear grip SP in built on a Savage Model 10 "lefty" repeater. Right hand has control of the grip and left hand works the bolt and feeds ammo.
That same "lefty" action is used on one of my bench rest rigs. Mounted on a Whidden V Block (as is the SP) and fitted to a "right hand" thumb hole BR style stock.
Two screws and the action is out and ready to be mounted in which ever stock you want. Swap barrels and bolt heads as needed and you're ready to go shooting.
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
^^^
Okay... responding to m12lrs
Not only do owners not keep original paperwork, but how does it "STAY a RIFLE"? If it is "papered as a rifle", and you change the stock so as to not have a shoulder piece, is it still a rifle because it is a certain length and the paperwork said it was/is a rifle? or does the fact it is no longer a designed to fire from the shoulder make it not a rifle??? i.e. is it a crime to remove the shoulder stock from a rifle if the barreled action and grip has a minimum overall length of 26"???
There is no definitive statement from the ATF, so you better be prepared for a fight if you do it.
I AM NO EXPERT ON ANY OF THIS. MY OPINION ON THE MATTER IS WORTHLESS. I KNOW NOTHING!!!!
I want to think Nor Cal Mikie is correct.
It's not a simple as replacing parts... I know Fred at Sharp Shooter Supply does those kinds of conversions. I hope to have him do some for me.
Make sure you meet STATE requirements too.
Bill
it is legal to make a rifle from a pistol, not legal to make a pistol from a rifle (without paying the tax)
did some more reading on the atf's web site this afternoon and I can't find anything saying you cant do what I'm wanting to do. I did find that a weapon over 26" oal and 16" barrel (rifle) or 18" (shotgun) yet no stock are classified as a "firearm" the pistol grip only shotguns (as sold from the manufactuer) are "firearms" I was however unable to find if making a "rifle" into a "firearm" was lawful/unlawful
Last edited by squirrel_slayer; 02-15-2017 at 10:12 PM.
looking at the Boyd's stock you mentioned earlier, it looks like it could work. Have you thought about some kind of thumbhole stock? you could leave enough behind the hole to be sure of OAL requirements. (maybe even some kind of "under forearm support" to help steady? think "wrist rocket slingshot" support except under the wrist)
I would be worried about the stock breaking under recoil with the thumbhole stock. there isn't alot of material there if you cut the stock off. also the grip angle may be troublesome. the pro varmint has alot of material to work with and is near verticle. between the two i'm sure I could whittle it to my liking (fingergrooves, thumb shelf, ect...)
as far as the forearm support I think that would be painful or possibly even break something (on me) I would rather let the gun roll with recoil than take all it has to offer to the wrist and forearm. the heaviest recoil from a handgun i've experienced was my 4" blackhawk with a 260 keith and 27gr of H110. if you don't let it roll with recoil it hurts! (took me awhile to learn how to shoot a single action I was trying to lock into it like a service pistol and control the recoil, no bueno!) going to assume a 165gr at 2200-2400 is going to be a pretty big step up in recoil.
What I was thinking was cut the stock 2, 3, or 4 inches behind the thumb hole. The support I was envisioning would be under the wrist to counter the weight of the barrel so far out in front of the hand. That way any "muzzle rise" on recoil moves it away (down from) the wrist. I was thinking (what's that smoke smell? LOL) there would be less than normal chance of stock breaking due to it not being butted up against a shoulder. I've seen some neat target stocks with (bondo/wood filler/epoxy?) finger grips molded to the owners hand, with and without thumb holes.
My 308 Striker (no muzzle brake) isn't too bad freehand. (maybe because of the center grip?) But when my buddy got an Encore in 30-06 he was scared to shoot it, so I went first.First round I tried to shoot it like a 44 Mag or 454 Casull, by letting it "roll at the elbow" and the hammer almost hit me in the forehead.
So I tried shooting it like a 375 H&H or 458 WM, "rolling at the hips" pretending my (not quite locked) arms were the stock. That worked like a charm. A little give at the elbows and a lot of roll at the hips.
Hard to put into words, but easy to understand when you see/do it.
Once a rifle, always a rifle is the ATF interpretation. This is how taking a rifle receiver and making it into something that would otherwise be called a pistol is a "SBR" and a felony without the proper blessings and taxes, even if there is no longer a shoulder stock.
I'm just wondering WHY? If you've ever fired a pistol grip only shotgun, they're far less useful than than anything with a shoulder stock. I can't see a long bolt action pistol being any more useful. If you're just after something more compact, have you considered a 16" barrel and short LOP stock, or a folding stock?
Why? My Striker trigger is pretty bad. I shoot only from the bench. My M10 in a shortened stock, even with a 22" barrel, has a good accu trigger and is easy to shoot from the bench. Withg a cut down 16 1/2" barrel it's very manageable. And, a cut down stock and barrel on a later 110 series action is cheap
r and easier to find than a Striker. I've had Competitors, Encores, Strikers and cut downs- I like the ability to change barrels on Strikers/cut downs. That's my why.
joe b.
yes I have considered a 16" barrel with a folder, but the bulk of the folder kind of defeats the purpose on a shorty, long rifle yes.
I personally haven't fired a centerfire pistol like one of these but have always liked the concept. my thoughts are I could carry such animal on a chest mounted holster and have it at a arms reach. where i'd be hunting elk is fairly dense terrain and I'd like the oppertunity to actually stalk to my game for the kill. our deer hunting here is very open country and shots to 300+ are the norm. yes still enjoyable but the other does appeal to me as well. probably has alot to do with the stories my co-worker has told me (an avid and **** good bow hunter) says when you can see the whites of their eyes and there there snorting and huffing 10-40 yards away there's nothing else like it. granted they(bow hunts) get to hunt during the rut so i'm sure that plays a big factor.
so in short, I want to get that same or similar experience as a bow hunter yet have enough gun to harvest the animal cleanly and not break the bank in the process.
Well, thing is, the Feds measure against the 26" OAL in the extended configuration. When folded, or collapsed for a telescoping stock, it is legal to be below 26". Your State law may vary, so double check, but it's something that can shorten things somewhat.
Another thought, have you considered an "AR10" based pistol? If the hunting regs allow it, a 10" barreled .308 should do the job at close range.
we can use semi's just have the magazine limit restrictions. a ar10 pistol build is way beyond what I'd want to spend. I could build a 450 bushmaster or 458 socom upper for my SBR lower and go that route, but that just doesn't appeal to me. don't get me wrong a gen II dpms .308 sbr is on the want list (much smaller platform) owned a gen 1 and I did enjoy it.......until I had to feed it.
we can use semi's just have the magazine limit restrictions. a ar10 pistol build is way beyond what I'd want to spend. I could build a 450 bushmaster or 458 socom upper for my SBR lower and go that route, but that just doesn't appeal to me. don't get me wrong a gen II dpms .308 sbr is on the want list (much smaller platform) owned a gen 1 and I did enjoy it.......until I had to feed it.
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