Best way to straighten crooked necks after necksizing

[Carson5]

I am new to reloading and am currently reading all info I can find concering necksizing .308. I've found a tool to check neck runout... but what is acceptable?
I've experienced quite a bit of resistance when withdrawing expander ball back through case after neck sizing. I've measued neck tension after seating bullet to be ~ .002. I am wondering if expander might be a bit too large or possibly too rough on inside of neck causing shoulder distortion of my once fired brass. Or perhaps too much resistance when seating bullets due to roughness of inside of neck. 80-90% of rounds chamber but rest chamber hard and are difficulut to extract. These bullets exhibit scoring just forward of case neck. What is best way to proceed.... pull the bullets remove expander ball from die and FL resize to correct? Polish expander ball, lube inside neck? Any advice would be appreciated.

[m12lrs]

A few questions.

Why do you want to neck size?

What die?

New brass or previously fired?

Yes you should lubricate the inside of.the neck with any number of dry graphite lubricants if you are using an expander ball.

Runout on finished rounds should be less than .003.

How did you establish COAL? You could be jamming the bullet into the lands

If previously fired brass that hasn't had the shoulder bumped back that could be your chambering problem.

Might just be best to buy you a forster full length sizing die and stick with that till you gain a little more.experience. i have come full circle. Tried it all and come back to full length sizing. Of course the die needs to be set up correctly.

[schnyd112]

Your necks need annealed. Or at least that is where I would start.

To check your expander ball, measure the outside neck diameter of a fired piece of brass, size a case with no expander ball, measure the neck, then size another with the expander ball and measure again. .005 difference is probably ok, but much more than that and you are probably overworking the brass.

.002neck tension, how are you coming up with this? Are you running a custom chamber because that is pretty freaking tight.

Full length sizing will probably fix your chambering issue, especially if you are shooting a factory chamber. Small imperfections can cause the brass to deform just enough to make it hard to rechamber after only neck sizing.

and as said above, make sure you aren't jamming bullets because that would be an easy fix. The scoring on the bullets could be the rifling.

[gbflyer]

It's hard to get an accurate read on case necks. In theory, a fired case comes out of the chamber perfect but in practicality if you get .0005 to .001 runout on a fired case you've got a good chamber. When you resize, you have the die, press, as well as variation in neck thickness working against you. So, for me, if I come out of resize, either neck or full length, and bullet seating with less than .003 runout measured at the ogive of the bullet, I am a happy camper. Others may have tighter tolerances, but in my experience this is a practical goal.

Resistance coming back over the expander is common due to the die over squeezing the neck. The die maker has to ream the die to match a variation of neck thicknesses, say within .002 from one brand or lot to another. What you are experiencing is common. I like a dry graphite lube inside the neck that I sparingly apply with a Qtip. Makes a huge difference. Your .002 neck tension seems perfectly acceptable to me.

One thing that might help you, in case you didn't know, is to remove the little clip that holds the shell holder into the press ram and replace it with an o-ring that fits around the outside of the ram. This allows the shell holder to slide back and forth a little when you resize a case. Also, run the decapper/ expander rod a little loose by not tightening the jam nut. Sometimes, this will buy you a little more concentric output.

Usually if I am having difficulty closing the bolt and extracting, I full length resize to bump the shoulder back, say .002. Usually takes care if it.

Could the "scoring" you are seeing on your bullet be because they are seated a little long and are jamming into the lands of the rifling? Might try to seat just a 1/4 turn deeper on your seating die and see if it goes away.

Let us know how you make out. Good luck and stick with it. It can be frustrating but don't give up. You'll get it!

Edit: wow, I am a slow typer and you got some good advice above while I was pecking away!

[bearcatrp]

I use this after I run the brass through the die to insure the neck is sized correctly. Inexpensive and works great!
http://kmshooting.com/tools/case-nec...-complete.html

[hafejd30]

I am new to reloading and am currently reading all info I can find concering necksizing .308. I've found a tool to check neck runout... but what is acceptable?
I've experienced quite a bit of resistance when withdrawing expander ball back through case after neck sizing. I've measued neck tension after seating bullet to be ~ .002. I am wondering if expander might be a bit too large or possibly too rough on inside of neck causing shoulder distortion of my once fired brass. Or perhaps too much resistance when seating bullets due to roughness of inside of neck. 80-90% of rounds chamber but rest chamber hard and are difficulut to extract. These bullets exhibit scoring just forward of case neck. What is best way to proceed.... pull the bullets remove expander ball from die and FL resize to correct? Polish expander ball, lube inside neck? Any advice would be appreciated.

What is acceptable? Depends what you want out of your rifle. I measure mine (.308 as well) with a Holland Gauge and get .002-.006 with RCBS neck dies. My Lee Collet Die and Forester Sester keeps all rounds under .003, most .001-.0015. I use the RCBS for factory chambered 308's. And I've loaded/still load for several. The RCBS will still do 1/2-3/4 moa on factory chambers so I don't worry. My aftermarket barrels when using the Lee/Forester will do 1/4-1/2 moa more often but there also better barrels.

Measure neck tension by sizing a fired case, measuring outside neck diameter, then seating a bullet and measuring outside diameter again. (This maybe what your doing already idk). My RCBS was about .004 -.006 tension. My Lee Collet is .0015-.002. Very easy to seat bullets in these compared to the RCBS. And no they don't move on there own. The RCBS are rough on the necks. The lube will help.

Your chambering issue is due to the chamber and bore not being concentric. I've always neck sized for my bolt guns. The aftermarket barrels will get tighter to chamber due to the shoulder getting tight but always extract easily. The issue your having is common among factory barrels. Have had issues with 3- 308 barrels in my reloading. Full length sizing will fix it. It never hurt my accuracy (supprisingly) and I did test the rounds that chambered hard vs ones that didn't. And mine never moved the bullet but I had more than .002 tension. I know exactly what your referring to. Rubbing just in front of the neck of the brass and stops at the ogive of the bullet. About 1/3 of the bullet has the rubbing marks on it. Unless your talking on just the ogive then your into the lands.

With mine the brass always ejects fine- telling you it's not the shoulder of your brass causing the resistance. But you chamber a loaded round/don't fire it/and almost need a mallet to remove it from the rifle.....

[hafejd30]

Keep in mind to that you could be bending the rim of the casing (the part that sits against your bolt face) by using so much resistance to pull expander ball through. I've done that to and had to pitch the casing.

The rifles I'm talking about have the issue your having about 90% of the time. So it may or may not be the same but that is what I found

The bullet would also vary in resistance depending on how it sat in chamber. (Be tight as heck, unchamber, turn the round a bit, rechamber, and have less or no resistance. I'm assuming this was depending on the way the casing was originally fired

[schnyd112]

I am not sure we are all thinking of neck tension the same. My current rifle chamber has a .296 neck, my loaded rounds are .293 giving my me .003 neck tension. This is a custom, tight neck chamber that needs necks to be turned in order to chamber. Are you explaining neck tension as in a sized unloaded, round is x and a loaded round is x+.002? If this is how you are doing it, you are not measuring your neck tension, and you will not be able to adjust it with a new expander ball or die.

also, are you loaded rounds from the mag or single feeding? If from the mag, the scoring on your bullet is probably coming from the mouth of the barrel, just in front of the feed ramp, or from the mag, just behind the feed ramp. That would explain why it stops just short of the neck and doesn't show up on the tip.

[hafejd30]

Schyd112 that is how I explained it yes. I believe the "correct" way uses a dial indicator etc. the way I described is what Redding instructed me to do to get a bushing for my 338 LM in their die. (Load a round, measure the outside diameter of neck, subtract desired neck tension, get that size bushing) I don't know how correct it truly is tho.....as it can't measure resistance in the neck

[Robinhood]

Depending on where you are checking the RO .002 could be very acceptable. If you check RO on your necks after sizing and you see more than .001 or .002 there is a problem with your dies more than likely. You are correct in believing that the expanded can be the issue. That and the die you are using is over-sizing the necks meaning making it smaller than it has to be. This is common and is corrected by modifying or replacing your sizing die with the right size expander and neck sizing diameter. Annealing was mentioned and I believe that to be an important process but if the other stuff is not right then annealing will not change much.

[dls1234]

I use a Lee Collet Die for neck sizing. And a Redding Body Sizing Die to bump the casing shoulder back to the 1st fired measurement (Form Fired Measurement from my rifle). Works great and these dies do not over work the Brass for longer lasting bass.

[Texas10]

Carson, you don't mention it so I'll start by asking; Do you have the gages to measure your headspace before and after sizing, and do you have an Over All Length gage that will allow you measure the distance to your rifles lands? Also, how are your trimming your resized brass to length?

With proper measuring tools, you'll find that when you experience great resistance with withdrawing the expander die, you are stretching the neck/shoulder forward. This will un-do your sizing operation and pull your neck off center, not to mention sticking a case in the die on occasion. So LUBE the inside of the necks before sizing. You can remove the expander ball and shaft and place in a electric drill. Spin it fast and use 1000 grit wet/dry sand paper to polish off brass and crud. Lube it and replace it into the die.

I prefer to wet tumble my brass after sizing. Harbor freight sells a rock tumbler that works great for small batches of brass. Loaded with 2 1/2 lbs of stainless steel pins it does a fabulous job and costs like $40.

Another tool you might want is a video inspection camera. I use the Snap-On BK5500 which you can buy used on eBay for around $100. You can look down the bore or into the chamber and see just how good a job your cleaning is, and if there is any copper build up. It'll tell you a great deal about what works and what doesn't.

To trim brass to length, I use the Worlds Finest Trimmer. Fast and accurate, it uses the shoulder as a reference point to trim length. They have a model that accepts interchangeable collets to use on different calibers.

Feel free to keep asking questions, and let know of your progress.

Welcome to the addiction!

[Carson5]

I was under the impression , after reading several articles concerning neck sizing only, that necksized fireformed brass cleaned, flash hole deburred, trimmed primed and charged could be more accurate that full sizing brass. ( I only have one .308 bolt gun Savage 12FV). I am using RCBS dies FL and neck. I am setting Coal to 2.80" but am using measurement to ogive using Hornady comparator. I am awaiting delivery of Hornady Headspace comparator to check shoulder to base of fireformed rounds. With respect to neck tension I measure OD of sized neck before bullet seating and after and am finding difference to be .0015-.002". Ball diam on both dies measures .306, although the full length die sizes down more that neck size die by .003" both dies with expander ball inserted yeild neck OD of .335 before bullet seating. Perhaps all I need to do in the future to avoid crooked necks is to slightly lube inside of neck before sizing........ but back to orig question... best way to staighten cooked necks??? Pull bullets and full re-size?

[hafejd30]

I would pull and try to fl size. If that doesn't work let us know. But just take 3 or so that chamber hard and pull/try those

[banjoguy]

Why do you suspect the necks are crooked?

[m12lrs]

I was under the impression , after reading several articles concerning neck sizing only, that necksized fireformed brass cleaned, flash hole deburred, trimmed primed and charged could be more accurate that full sizing brass. ( I only have one .308 bolt gun Savage 12FV). I am using RCBS dies FL and neck. I am setting Coal to 2.80" but am using measurement to ogive using Hornady comparator. I am awaiting delivery of Hornady Headspace comparator to check shoulder to base of fireformed rounds. With respect to neck tension I measure OD of sized neck before bullet seating and after and am finding difference to be .0015-.002". Ball diam on both dies measures .306, although the full length die sizes down more that neck size die by .003" both dies with expander ball inserted yeild neck OD of .335 before bullet seating. Perhaps all I need to do in the future to avoid crooked necks is to slightly lube inside of neck before sizing........ but back to orig question... best way to staighten cooked necks??? Pull bullets and full re-size?

You want to straighten them? Shoot them. Fireforming will straighten them out. Then quit doing whatever you are doing that made.them crooked.

[Carson5]

Banjoguy,
Fireformed brass chambers fine, but after seating bullet rounds are difficult to chamber and have scoring marks on bullet just forward of brass case before ogive. Rotating round produces scoring in same spot on bullet. Either pulling expander ball back up thru case is distorting case mouth or shoulder or resistance to bullet seating is causing neck to deform. OR I've got a seating or sizing die out of spec. I am going to full length size and lightly lube necks to see if this cures problem.

[m12lrs]

Banjoguy,
Fireformed brass chambers fine, but after seating bullet rounds are difficult to chamber and have scoring marks on bullet just forward of brass case before ogive. Rotating round produces scoring in same spot on bullet. Either pulling expander ball back up thru case is distorting case mouth or shoulder or resistance to bullet seating is causing neck to deform. OR I've got a seating or sizing die out of spec. I am going to full length size and lightly lube necks to see if this cures problem.

How new.is this rifle?

Are you single loading or using.a magazine?

It is common in savage rifles for.the chamber.and.throat to be.a.little.rough. Might.have a few burs in the throat. They will smoth out.after.the first.50 or so rounds

[bigedp51]

Carson5

Most neck sizing dies do not fully support the case body and this increases neck runout. A full length die fully supports the case body and neck. And if the expander is removed from the full length die after sizing the case will be as straight and concentric as it ever will be.

With a full length die the biggest cause of neck runout is because the expander is locked down off center and induces neck runout.

The Forster full length benchrest dies have a high mounted floating expander The neck of the case is still held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. This prevents the floating expander from pulling the case neck off center and inducing neck runout.

The Forster expander and spindle assembly works so well I equipped all my RCBS dies and my Redding full length .243 die.

Below my Redding .243 die with a Forster spindle and expander that greatly reduces neck runout. I will never understand why Redding puts elongated expanders in their dies when they create more drag and friction on the inside of the case neck.



Below a replacement Forster expander and spindle assembly for my RCBS .223 full length die. On the left is the RCBS expander raised as high as it will go and not able to perform like the Forster expander does.



Below the Forster die and its high mounted floating expander.



Also any time you use a die with a expander the inside of the case neck must be lubed. Failure to lube the inside of the neck can cause the case shoulder to be pulled forward and have varying and inconsistent shoulder bump locations.

NOTE, at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric ammunition using non-bushing full length dies.

[Robinhood]

Also any time you use a die with a expander the inside of the case neck must be lubed. Failure to lube the inside of the neck can cause the case shoulder to be pulled forward and have varying and inconsistent shoulder bump locations.

NOTE, at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric ammunition using non-bushing full length dies.

Yep

[schnyd112]

I bought the forster bench rest sizing die and have never looked back. I lube necks with graphite, then make sure to clean them after sizing. I also started annealing every 3 firings and now sizing and seating is cakewalk. The anneal, even on "once" fired brass will make a world of difference. Consistency is the name of the game and annealing puts all your brass on the same plane.

The best shooters in the world, other than bechrest guys, have shown that neck sizing does not improve accuracy. It is more to improve brass life than anything because it doesn't work the shoulder. Neck sizing a custom chamber cut with a sharp reamer reamer is one thing, doing it on a factory chamber where the reamer has cut 100+ barrels is another.

[dls1234]

For bolt action rifles, fire formed brass is the way to go for accuracy. Full case sizing is not necessary and wears out the brass quickly. The Redding Body die will keep the case shoulder at the first fired dimensions. The Hornady Headspace comparator B350 is used to check shoulders on .308 Cartridge. Most people discount the Lee Collet Die because it is Lee (Cheap??). But Lee has the patent on this die and they enforce it against their competitor if they try to copy it. The Collet Neck Die -- De-cappes and resizes neck simultaneously. The de-capping pin aligns/centers the cartridge thru the fire hole while the neck is resized. This die does not require inside neck lube. The Redding Body sizing Die only require a small amount of resizing wax- which is wiped away with a cloth. This eliminates the need for regular brass tumbling -- which saves a lot of time on with brass prep stages. There are some good you tube videos on the Lee Collect Neck sizing die.

[Zero333]

Lube the inside of the necks if using a expander ball.

0.002" neck tension is about perfect. Anything from 0.0015" to 0.003" is ideal.

Stand cases up, spray with Hornady one-shot case sizing lube-spray on a 45deg downward angle from all around the cases, 8" away from them. They'll size themselves afterwards.

I tried many different types of lubes and waxes and the Hornady One-shot is by far the best, and it's impossible to over lube with the stuff, the more the better. Read directions on the spray-can to verify how to use it.

[bigedp51]

For bolt action rifles, fire formed brass is the way to go for accuracy. Full case sizing is not necessary and wears out the brass quickly. The Redding Body die will keep the case shoulder at the first fired dimensions. The Hornady Headspace comparator B350 is used to check shoulders on .308 Cartridge. Most people discount the Lee Collet Die because it is Lee (Cheap??). But Lee has the patent on this die and they enforce it against their competitor if they try to copy it. The Collet Neck Die -- De-cappes and resizes neck simultaneously. The de-capping pin aligns/centers the cartridge thru the fire hole while the neck is resized. This die does not require inside neck lube. The Redding Body sizing Die only require a small amount of resizing wax- which is wiped away with a cloth. This eliminates the need for regular brass tumbling -- which saves a lot of time on with brass prep stages. There are some good you tube videos on the Lee Collect Neck sizing die.

Sorry, I belong to the "Rat turd in the violin case" fraternity, please note "WHO" wrote the post below.

[Carson5]

Thanks to all posters for input... I pulled a few of the loaded rounds which would not chamber re-sized using full length die and rounds load without any resistance. The unsupported shoulder must have been getting pulled up and deformed using neck sizing only( also could have used a bit of lube on necks!).
Great forum.