Reply With QuoteOriginal barrel?
Savage barrels are pretty rough. Worst of anything I have looked at so far (WWI rifles excepted!)
Great tool, sure can look gruesome, has nothing to do with how they shoot, just how hard it is to clean em ep
Just picked up a Lyman scope since it was on sale. Sweet scope. Decided to test it on my 10T 308. Am seeing pitting. Have 1000-1100 rounds shot through it. When does pitting start happening? Am presuming shooting hotter loads will accelerate it. My pet load is 178 ELD-X getting around 2720 fps. Is this to soon for pitting to start? Will give it a good cleaning, then scope it again and post some pics.
Savage 10 FCP-SR 308, 300BO PCS
Original barrel?
Savage barrels are pretty rough. Worst of anything I have looked at so far (WWI rifles excepted!)
Great tool, sure can look gruesome, has nothing to do with how they shoot, just how hard it is to clean em ep
Do they look like this? Pictures are from a Savage Stealth with less than 400 rounds through it.
I used a Lyman borescope on a brand new (zero rounds fired) on a FV12 223, and saw some pitting, tooling marks, and just about everything else you could imagine, I was very disappointed but it still shoots pretty darn good, so. I've read numerous comments that Savage barrels are pretty rough, but they still shoot good.
Yep, my brother was horror struck when I let him use mine.
The condition has noting to do with how they shoot (within limits) but buttons are plain rough and Savage is the roughest so far.
The biggest issue is they are harder to clean.
Hammer forged are much smoother but not necessarily good shooters.
So far Savage is the Worst, XC is in Between and the Shilen is the best for cleaning. All shoot better than I can all too often!
I guess I should be happy it shoots better than I can and not think the bore looks tore up. I wonder if it shoot any better if it was pretty like a Shilen or Bartlein?
That looks squeeky clean compared to mine. Once I clean my barrel thoughly, will take some pics and post them, but definitely pits.Originally Posted by Hawaiian
Do they look like this? Pictures are from a Savage Stealth with less than 400 rounds through it.
Savage 10 FCP-SR 308, 300BO PCS
All I care about is the holes in my targets.
At the very least I do know that Patch Out does a good job
Here are some pics.
Savage 10 FCP-SR 308, 300BO PCS
Where is this "pitting" located? Halfway down the barrel? At the throat? I don't know much about "barrel pitting", but I don't think it is something that eventually happens. THroats erode, but barrel pitting is not an effect of wear, as far as I know. Abuse it and a bore will rust to the point of pitting, but that doesn't seem to be what you have there.
Also, .308's generally shoot a few thousand rounds before even the throat might start to erode.
How does it shoot?
On another forum a very respected 'smith noted the following, and I am paraphrasing: a borecam will "poison your mind". His point was that unless the thing doesn't shoot don't look inside.
I have the Lyman cam and before I read his comments I used it on my Stealth with fewer than 200 rounds through it and was aghast, to say the least. I found exactly what bearcat did...my reaction was holycrap the bore almost looks threaded, WTH how can this be?! The thing is this thing shoots; 5 inside a dime if i do my part. Go figure.
I still use the cam though, but aware that what I see may not have any bearing on how the barrel will shoot.
The pitting is closer the the action. It shoots great though. Am surprised how some areas look like threaded but since I don't know how a barrel is made, I won't complain as long as it shoots good. Did see allot of copper fouling so my cam will help me insure its clean. I will start looking into a replacement barrel for down the road. Figure it will take many months so by the time it gets here I'll be ready. Will start getting the tools also as I want to do it myself.
Savage 10 FCP-SR 308, 300BO PCS
Rough bore like yours (maybe all factory Savage barrels) are often considered "copper mines". Meaning, they accumulate copper, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. If the copper is filling in your pits, let it be. Don't be in a rush to remove it. Savage barrels, in particular, have a reputation for shooting better after 100+ rounds have been fired through them when new or after removing all the copper. Unless your barrel has been lapped to smooth out tooling marks and chatter, etc, don't worry about copper fouling. It's a poor man's alternative to lapping. What you're really looking for is a consistent finish to your bore; something that makes for consistent, accurate shooting. I say, leave it alone. Only clean as often as accuracy starts to fall off, and don't clean it aggressively (removing copper).
Nope, have a Shilen, Savage shoots with it if I am shooting.
Shilen may be a bit better but we are talking 1/10 or 2/10, hard to see depends on how consistent I am.
My guess is the Savage is around 1/2 MOA barrel
My guess is the Shilen is around 1/4 MOA.
That's an eye-blink at 100 yds, only the best shooters would be able to separate that out. That's not me.
I agree with foxx 113.325 % (alterative measuring system). Something like 4 or 5 Savage barrels and they are all bad.
I am seeing a bit of copper sheen on Savage barrels in what I assume are even rougher spots, but no build up.
I am not going after it at all. My cleaner is a Carbon only one.
I am able to see the Carbon and how effective my cleaning out of that is with now the Carbon Killer 2000
I would urge all to give up on the aggressive toxic cleaners and shift to one of the new ones like CK2.
No odor and far more effective than anything else. I believe the new non toxic ones all are similar chemistry.
I do clean every two or three shooting sessions. That's typically 100 rounds through the gun.
I wish I was consistent enough to see when it does fall off.
I am keeping an eye out for a pattern, but so far first cold shot looks to be falling exactly where it left off. So the cleaning cycle looks good.
Continue to be interested in and listen to others experience.
So far I've been pretty lucky. As BAD is the inside of my barrel looks it shoots minute of coyote. I've looked at the barrels from a Remington I've had for years and it does not have the tool and chatter marks the savage does. A year old Ruger Predator in 6.5 that cost me half as much as at Savage and it's barrel looks better. But I'm not a machinist or gun smith so what do I know. Ugly or not it does shoot well.
Thought about sending savage some of these pics to see what they have to say. Probably a waste of time though and not get a response.
Savage 10 FCP-SR 308, 300BO PCS
You get the same affect if you look at your fingers with a microscope! :-)a borecam will "poison your mind". His point was that unless the thing doesn't shoot don't look inside.
I would think high surfaces are more important than the low ones. Ridges and bumps more than tiny pits or valleys from drilling. Also straightness, concentricity and diameter would be most important and the borescope isn't going to show those things as easily. So it's an education and you have to learn what to look for and ignore the other horrible things you might see, since they are secondary.
I have to wonder if people actually read the posts.
Its been repeatedly stated by several people that rough barrels shoot just fine and finish has nothing to do with accuracy.
And then this that "I have been lucky" with those rough barrels. Really? Go back and read has been posted.
No, you are not lucky, rough barrels do not mean bad barrels. Sheese.
What concerns me the most about these copper mines is when they foul at the muzzle. They may shoot accurately but if you drag them around in the moisture hunting and you get that white powder look in the barrel the next shot has been off a few inches. The next ones come right back though. The other issue is that they need at least 3 shots to foul in my experience. So I never know whether to hunt with them clean, dirty, or do I run a bore snake down before every hunt. The 12 fv's that I have take a few to foul after cleaning but they are always dead on for the first shot after sitting a month or so with no cleaning or oiling after the last time shot. They only thing I know for sure is the ones that shoot good after sitting have no visible copper fouling at the muzzle. BTW I just bought a bore scope so I probably about to drive my self nuts lol.
In my experience, bore snake does not remove copper, removes carbon to some degree, as long as it's not built up and hardened. Of course, you do WANT to remove carbon after a while. Pulling a bore snake thru your bore before and after each trip to range or hunt is a good idea, in my book.
I'm saying I'm lucky because my rough barrel is able to make groups that is acceptable to me. Not all rough barrels do. The pictures below are of a Savage barrel that would not do better than an inchand a half no matter what loads the owner tried and has since been replaced with a Shilen select.
Same is true for smoother barrels. As many of those do not shoot as rough.
There is no correlation. Its other factors that make it shoot or not.
Smooth allows easier cleaning and that all that can be said of it.
Of course a Shilen is going to have a far better chance to shoot, its not smooth either.
It quality control is what makes it a better shooter, not the smooth.
Hammer forged are smooth, unless better attention paid to them they won't shoot well.
Something to try - I use Tubb Final Finish, it smooths the barrel out, cleans tooling and chatter marks. Have 3 stealths, all .5 MOA, all using Final Finish. Priced it out and at roughly $1 per round it works out same as breaking in by shooting. You can use every 500-600 rounds to clean up the barrel and cleaning is much easier, does not appear to copper foul nearly as much. No finanical interest, just a product I like.
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