imr 4064 in the 223 ??

[noname]

has anyone tried this powder in the 223 with heavy bullets with a 7 twist barrel?

Like the 75 or 80 plus grain bullets. Seemed I read an article about it once and

thought I would ask before getting a lb of it. I know some use it with good results

with the lighter bullets in a slower twist..Thanks for any info you have to offer..

[NicfromAlabama]

I like IMR 4064. However, I don't think it is ideal for .223 due to case capacity. I seemed to come up with compressed loads much sooner than the load data said I would. I even tried to use a drop tube to help, but I still filled up the case long before max load. I have not used it in a while for .223. I don't think my results were all that great either, but I did not shoot much with it. I use IMR 3031 quite a bit for .223. I have had good results with 3031, but I also experiment with other powders too. IMR 4064 is versatile though, so it never hurts to have a pound of it if you reload for various calibers, especially larger than .223. It works very well in .308.

Coincidentally, about 3 months ago, I did try to use IMR 4064 again in .223 with Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullets. I was loading multiple charges starting near min and going up to max. After learning my lesson in the past, you would think I would have know better. Turns out, I filled up the case long before max charge. I ended up pulling the bullets I had loaded and used Winchester 748 instead.....which I have yet to shoot.

[noname]

I like IMR 4064. However, I don't think it is ideal for .223 due to case capacity. I seemed to come up with compressed loads much sooner than the load data said I would. I even tried to use a drop tube to help, but I still filled up the case long before max load. I have not used it in a while for .223. I don't think my results were all that great either, but I did not shoot much with it. I use IMR 3031 quite a bit for .223. I have had good results with 3031, but I also experiment with other powders too. IMR 4064 is versatile though, so it never hurts to have a pound of it if you reload for various calibers, especially larger than .223. It works very well in .308.

Coincidentally, about 3 months ago, I did try to use IMR 4064 again in .223 with Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullets. I was loading multiple charges starting near min and going up to max. After learning my lesson in the past, you would think I would have know better. Turns out, I filled up the case long before max charge. I ended up pulling the bullets I had loaded and used Winchester 748 instead.....which I have yet to shoot.

Thanks for your iput. I have been thinking about trying the 748 as well.Have read several good reports on it with the heavy bullets.As well as with H335..As soon as it warms up

here I will be going to the range for load testing..Thanks again

[NicfromAlabama]

I have had some decent results with 748, but I have not used it much. What amazed me about 748 is how "cool burning" it is. I was using it in my AR-15, shooting off the bench. I could immediately handle the case as soon as it ejected. With other powders, the case will burn your hand. I have read, don't know if it is true, that 748 causes much less throat erosion and barrel wear due to how cool it is. I have no idea if that is true. The downside is that I have read it is temperature sensitive, and may lead to overpressure problems if you have loaded to max and shoot it in very hot weather.

[darkker]

Be aware:
IMR4064 has been a General Dynamics powder out of the Quebec plant. However late this fall, Hodgy has been buying the 8# jugs from Rhinemetal out of Germany. So be aware not all 4064 is what you think it is.

[NicfromAlabama]

Be aware:
IMR4064 has been a General Dynamics powder out of the Quebec plant. However late this fall, Hodgy has been buying the 8# jugs from Rhinemetal out of Germany. So be aware not all 4064 is what you think it is.

That is interesting. I never put much thought into where the powder was made......at least not the IMR/Hodgon powder I have. Curiosity got the better of me. I have 3 8lb jugs of 4064. I stocked up on 4064 a while back. Two have Made in Canada on them. One has Made in Switzerland on it.........I think that may be the last just jug I bought. I noticed my 2 8lb jugs of IMR 4227 has Made in Australia on it. IMR 4198...also Australia. IMR 3031...Canada. All my Alliant powder.....USA. Winchester 748....USA. I have some miscellaneous others and 1 lb containers that I did not look at.

I am curious if my Switzerland IMR 4064 powder looks like my Canada IMR 4064 powder. The Canada IMR 4064 powder I have used so far is very long stick powder. I was tempted to crack open the jug, but changed my mind. That's kind of an eye opener. I was a little ignorant, and assumed it was made in the USA. I knew my Vihtavuori powder was made in Finland, but that was the only one..

[darkker]

Yep, we are the waste market my friend; always have been.

There is only one private (Not a government arsenal) powder mill left in the USA. That is owned by the Defense Contactor, General Dynamics. Here is your list of whos who.

General Dynamics - American defense contractor that makes all Canadian-made IMR rifle powders, all Winchester Ball powders, some Accurates, the Alliant shpericals (PowerPro), and some Hodgdons.

ATK -American defense contractor that used to make all American-made Alliant pistol/shotgun powders (the flake powders, basically). The parent powders came from the Radford arsenal. They lost that contract to British Aerospace, so don't know that this is still happening.

Thales - French defense contractor that owns ADI, makes all of Hodgy's "Extreme" rifle powders, plus some IMRs. At least 27% owned by the State of France, and 25.9% owned by Dassault.

Rheinmetall - German owner of Nitrochemie. Makes Reloder-17. Don't know about other commercial powders.

Groupe SNPE - French State-owned. Makes all Bofors (most of the Reloder line, and the Norma line) and Ramshot powders via their Eurenco layer.

Nammo - Makes Vihtavuori powders, pending regulatory approval of purchase from Eurenco. Nammo is owned 50/50 by the State of Norway and Patria group. Patria is 73.2% owned by the State of Finland, 26.8% by Airbus Industries. So, Nammo is 50% Norwegian, 36.6% Finnish, and 13.4% French.


The other thing to consider is the base used. The Quebec plant WAS only building single base powders. If Rhinemetal is using double base powder, you may get a bit more speed; but burns hotter.

[rbp75503]

My results to-date: Berger .224 73 gr. Target HPBT #BG22420
	Powder	C.O.L.	Start	Max	Most Accurate	Group
	Benchmark	2.260"	19.5	21.7	20.5	.148"
	H335	2.260"	20.5	22.7	22.0	.448"
	IMR4064	2.260"	19.3	23.5C	21.5	.214""

Sierra .224 77 gr.Tipped Match King BT #7177
	Powder	C.O.L.	Start	Max	Most Accurate	Group
Untested	H4895	2.260"	20.0	22,6C
Untested	IMR3031	2.260"	18.5	21,3C
Untested	H335	2.260"	23.0	25.7
Untested	Benchmark	2.260"	21.5	23.5
	IMR4064	2.260"	20.0	22.7C	22.0	.374"
	BL-C(2)	2.260"	21.0	24,9	23.5	.251"

[noname]

Allinteresting information.I myself was not aware of the different manufactor...But it must be the same powder listing in the manuals or is it not?

I'm scared to load any now after seeing all this..

[Texas10]

My results to-date: Berger .224 73 gr. Target HPBT #BG22420
	Powder	C.O.L.	Start	Max	Most Accurate	Group
	Benchmark	2.260"	19.5	21.7	20.5	.148"
	H335	2.260"	20.5	22.7	22.0	.448"
	IMR4064	2.260"	19.3	23.5C	21.5	.214""

Sierra .224 77 gr.Tipped Match King BT #7177
	Powder	C.O.L.	Start	Max	Most Accurate	Group
Untested	H4895	2.260"	20.0	22,6C
Untested	IMR3031	2.260"	18.5	21,3C
Untested	H335	2.260"	23.0	25.7
Untested	Benchmark	2.260"	21.5	23.5
	IMR4064	2.260"	20.0	22.7C	22.0	.374"
	BL-C(2)	2.260"	21.0	24,9	23.5	.251"

What barrel are you shooting, length and twist?

[rbp75503]

What barrel are you shooting, length and twist?

Savage MDL16 223 Rem 26" 1-8" Shilen Wylde. Originally a Weather Warrior.

[darkker]

But it must be the same powder listing in the manuals or is it not?
I'm scared to load any now after seeing all this..

"The Same"... Let's talk that it a bit, then you can decide if you're scared.

First is "The manuals".
Except the very old A-Squàred manual, can you name me even ONE that lists lot numbers tested, and test dates, and specifically who tested(outside Co, or calculation)? I can't. Hodgdon does little of their own pressure testing, typically it's still in inaccurate CUP. So what you have and what's in the book, aren't the "same" to start with, at least that you could prove.

Hodgdon warns that you to "drop loads 10% when switching lots". So NORMAL lot variation is 10% total swing potentially, you can confirm the same over at Western's page. Does that normal amount you've lived with scare you? Did you even give it a moment's thought in the past?
General Dynamics makes the usual powder, Rhinemetal the other, so no, they aren't "The same". But the burning rate is close enough to be unnoticed by the bulk of the masses.

Remember that we are talking plants that are built to make train loads of powder a day for war. Hodgdon's cute little Semi orders aren't exactly capacity, and we are talking mass production. Our powders change constantly, but if the burning rate is close, most will never test enough to know, they just buy the brand they like and don't test anything.
Examples:
WC846 has its patent date in the 1930's. WC844 is a voluntary segregation based on amount of acid stabilizer, but burning rate is unaffected and is the same recipe; just depends how the cookie gets cooked so to speak. This happened in about 1969.
Hodgdon claims Bl-c(2) & H335 originated for certain military cartridges. But you can see the patent date predates that nonsense. So does Hodgdon call GD and ask for a powder recipe from the 1930's? Do they ask for that one trainload of rejected surplus? SMP-842 had been in development for well over a decade, and only got finalized recently. I was burning surplus 8 years ago, until Hodgy bought it all. Well the rejected stuff is long gone, and we have our current formula. You don't remember hearing anyone but me complaining about a formula change in "CFE223".

Tell the average schmoe that Bl-c(2) & H335 are the same powder within normal lot variation, and they will spit at you. They believe CFE is the first to have copper cleaners, and that is somehow new US tech. They believe temp stability is a universal property.

Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.

[Topsail]

I used IMR 4064 for XTC with 80gr Noslers 24gr for 600 and 800 with good results. Barrel is a 1-7 Krieger. 24gr was not a max load in my rifle but is over book max. Was very accurate with no pressure signs. It was a pain to load due to the size of the powder. Have since changed to 8208.

[noname]

8208 did not fair well for me with the 9 twist barrel. Maybe it will do better in the 7 twist...

[thatguyshm]

I recently ordered a bunch of Nosler's new RDF 70gr for my 223. Bolt action so I'm loading them long, around 2.370" to put them about 5 thou off the lands, 9twist Remmy. I'm trying AR Comp first, then I'm going to look at H335, but would prefer to test in above freezing temps so I'll have to wait awhile.

I tried 4064 with 68gr Hornady bthp and couldn't get anything tighter than 1-1.5 MOA, so I never bothered to send them through the Magnetospeed. I am interested to see if the 9t will shoot these good as it's hit or miss. If I can get the speed up it works great.

Time will tell but I have plenty of these two powders so testing will be rather thorough.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk