Reply With QuoteThey come from the gun store.
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Because they're not Savages.Originally Posted by chetc
The floating bolt head and quality of the Savage barrels just make them for the most part inherently accurate. But as a Savage guy I'm sure most of us already know that.
They come from the gun store.
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I picked up a weather warrior in 260 Rem a few months ago, it sits in a bedded Boyd's laminate stock. I've done almost zero load development so far, and I have it shooting 1/2" at 100 yds with 130 gr AR Hybrids. I plan to do more load work after deer season, but it's a killing machine right now!
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Have a 110 in 300 win mag with a pencil thin barrel. Got it down to right at 1moa with 208gr amax and r22. Always figured I was the reason the groups didn't get any tighter. But maybe I am not doing too bad all things considered.
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With a 300 WM let alone a pencil barrel I think that's doing good (I think now I would develop a flinch!)
Its a hunting gun and that is more than good enough.
Something I want to add in.
I think groups like this are honest with their reports. The sneer type can argue the nuances, but what I think we are talking about is what the gun can do and what we can do with the gun.
So if I say I am shooting Sub 1/2 MOA I don't claim each one is 1/2 MOA or less. And I say that, I say how many out of a range session that is.
So while we read of "you guys are lying " statements, I find that offensive. I think for the most part we can sort out liars from the shooters.
You simply dismiss the ones you think are lying (if they are)
That contributes nothing to the discussion. Anyone can tear something down, it takes work to add something to a discussion.
So, they have yet to tell me, if in a rage session I shoot 5 groups of 5/8 and under out of 20, what does that tell me about the gun and load? (and pick an number, 3/4 or 1 inch or ?)
From a technical aspect, I think that tells me the gun and load combo is probably good to 3/8. Having done some research, a good shooter can hold about 1/4 inch.
So, if they shoots 1s and 2s, then their gun is good to almost zero (which the Secret of the Houston Warehouse would seem to confirm as those tests were done virtually by machine rest and untouched by anything other than a trigger pull on a 2 or 3000 lb bench.)
So, the one group I shot was by my standard poor right at 1 inch. That's in the wind (from behind) , dim light, cold ) 20 degrees) and the floor is gravel, not the best bench or stool. Frankly that is not bad, not my standards but under those conditions?
So, I looked at my results, decided I had moved the COAL back a bit too far, set the next group closer to the lands and plopped in a 3/8 group.
So I look at it and its far from the first 1/2 or under, I think the gun is good to 3/8 (and given its a bit of a custom setup but not F class)
Overall if I am doing my end right I think I am a 5/8 shooter. I also understand that the concentration and consistency of hold, trigger, etc goes back and forth.
In the past I have shot an occasionally a really good group (to me that's 3/8 or less) and maybe not another one for a month or two.
Now thee 1/2 and less are far more common.
That is with two different proven guns (working on a third) and with load development.
So rather than call us liars, tell us how the results look in context add something to how to get better, do some research with your know good guns and tell me how accurate the gun is with a proven good load in a rock solid stand vs the shooter.
In the meantime, I will continue to publish my results so that others starting down the road can get some idea of how the progression goes and what I think are the signs of improvement.
I don't expect ever to compete with the likes of Tubbs, but I think with my guns and load I can do sub 5/8 MOA work and that is not bad area to be in my opinion.
I also (I know, I am lying again) exclude load development . I know to the true truthers its hearsay, but I tend to think load development means you are taking something form an unknown and larger groups to smaller ones.
When it gets warm I am going to tackle the Pencil 30-06 and 270 and see what I can do with those. Seems like a good challenge.
With the known guns can I do sub 5/8 MOA consistently ? that's the challenge. If I ever get there then the bar is raised higher and its 1/2 MOA and under.
Yea I won't lie I have a bit of a flinch, have to do dry fire practice to keep it under control from time to time. But I'm just naturally flinchy for some reason but trying to brake myself of it.
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I might have found something I can agree with RC on... :)
see post 130.
Best way to BREAK yourself of a flinch is with a BRAKE.
And the Earth Shook!
I think we often can find more common ground in person that on the internet.
OR practice with a light recoiling rifle
I put a muzzle brake on it and it helps. I love to shoot but pisses me off I can't get away from flinching. I can tell when I start so usually have to practice dry firing a few times then I am good for a bit.
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I don't know if it helps but I cross that line and mine is 15 lbs and usually not max loads.
Spent a lot of time getting my eyes not to blink as well.
Do you have a good recoil pad? Helps a lot. Never shot it but my brother said it tames his 7mm Rem mag.
That can help, but the best is to get a dumby round in, that really shows you where its at?
Good way is a primer and no powder load. Pop the primer and then you can mix that dead one in with 3 or 4 live ones.
Maybe a better test now I think about it.
[IMG][/IMG]
Holy Crap fellas.... I got out with the new FLCP to start the barrel break-in process... and you gotta see this... FIRST 5 rounds out of the barrel! first was a bore sight, adjusted scope, then I fired 4 more cleaning between each one. I thought I was seeing things! ONE RAGGED HOLE!!! and I had a witness!!! Stock FLCP, Vortex PST 6.5-20, Hornady American Whitetail 150 gr. Then I switched to 168 gr. Fusion and got just under MOA.. Now How do I post the pic???
Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good, LOL Looks like you got lucky and may have found the right load very quickly.
I'd say the American whitetail looks promising. And I believe I'd try a box or two following the same shoot clean procedure for a while :)
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
Here's 5 from 100 yards from a 6BR Model 12. I have another on photobucket showing 4 consecutive groups on one target, but for some reason, the top of it is cut off. When I figure out what is wrong, I'll post it.
Last edited by sleepy; 12-24-2016 at 07:50 AM. Reason: problem with photobucket
A model 114 All American Classic, out of the box, adjusted the accutrigger and added Leupold rings and a Bushnell 3x9x40 scope. Handloads for 50GrZmax regularily shoot .7M.O.A. at 100 Mtrs and one was .484, all 5 shot groups. I didn't have a proper bench rest set up at the time. Powder 25 grs ADI 8208, ADI cases (fireformed) CCI 400 Primers. I was struggling to get MOA using factory ammo, so I took up reloading as a result... love reloading now!. I wanted to post photo's but the site won't let me. Cheers
Try Photobucket.... That's what I found.
Well done!
Not only a good reloader and setup a good shooter as none of the hardware matters if the software does not do its end.
I have to give up on the 30-06 pencil barrel shooting idea. It sold, sigh. Disappointed
I still have the 270 and will see about getting that one lined in before I put it up for sale.
I guess I got one of the accurate .223 Savages. I fired several five five shot groups with it. The worst group was a .494 with the average of the six groups being .464".
Give credit to you self as well. Usually the hardware shoots better than we can.
I read that the best bench rest shooters can maintain a 1/4 MOA wobble (if you will, just the physics of actually holding and shooting a gun)
They can hold that orbital wobble if you will and the average is better that .250 as that is 1/8 either side.
It tells you what the very best do.
In my opinion, anything under 1/2 is very good on the shooters part and getting several in a row says a lot for the shooters ability to be consistent.
First one is an Axis 223 that will shoot milsurp ammo to an inch or less and good ammo even tighter. The real shock however was the new 16 Lightweight hunter. Will shoot Federal Prem 95gr NBT's touching all day..... To make sure that wasnt a fluke... it repeated the process with the 95 gr Fusions..... I hate the stock but I LOVE the gun!
You have to remember that how well a rifle SYSTEM groups is based on the following variables working in harmony: the rifle, the ammo, the optics, the shooter and the conditions.
If you have a .25 MOA rifle; shooting 1 MOA ammo; topped with optics that has 1 MOA parallax; being shot by a 1 MOA shooter; in high swirling, variable winds; you will never achieve sub-MOA groups. Even in calm weather.
Eliminate as many variables as you can first, find the ammo your rifle likes. I just recently discovered that my 20+ year old Savage 110FP in .308 Winchester loves the Federal Gold Match 175-grain HPBT factory loads. I thought the barrel was shot out because I could not get any consistent groups out of the PPU 175-grain FMJ-BT Match ammo. I even went back and forth between scopes because I thought they were wandering or their parallax adjustments were broken. I used to shoot nothing but my reloads out of that rifle and I may have to dust off the reloading rig to do so again.
Good luck!!
The nice thing about 308 is there is a lot of match ammo for it. Something will work fairly good most of the time ad you have variety to choose from.
Its also expensive, ergo, I broke out my reloading setup 5 years back when I got back into shooting.
Been playing this game for 60 years. I've yet to SEE a package rifle from Gander or Cabala's, right out of the box, shoot a .5, especially with factory ammo.
Wish all of you that shoot these <.75 groups would tell us what you are using; barrel, trigger, scope, front and back rests. Are you using free recoil? Do you weigh cases, bullets, primers? Have you indexed the barrel to reduce harmonic distortion? What reloader are you using. What is the MEASURED DISTANCE TO THE TARGET and is it one group or 10?
Google and read about the Houston Warehouse by Virgil King, shooting matches are won.... and lost.... by the ability of the shooter to read the wind.
Flinch is when you can't pull the trigger, think trap shooters. Jerking the trigger, is a jerk on the trigger and usually a poor trigger.
Bill
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