Reply With QuoteI have two Savage centerfires. Both have had but a singular trip to the range.
This is what my 223 Lightweight hunter did.
On my 22-250's first trip to the range it gave me a .30 inch 3 shot group. I have a pic of it but Photobucket is acting wonky.
My only out of the box Savage less than 1/2 MOA is a Model 12 F-class in 6br Norma. With reloads it's capable of .2 MOA at 300 yards. My hunting rifle is an Axis II heavy barrel in .243 that is now 1/2 MOA at 100 yards once I got it out of the Tupperware stock with reloads. That's the joy of a Savage that there is many options do to them to make them better.
I have two Savage centerfires. Both have had but a singular trip to the range.
This is what my 223 Lightweight hunter did.
On my 22-250's first trip to the range it gave me a .30 inch 3 shot group. I have a pic of it but Photobucket is acting wonky.
very well saidOriginally Posted by big honkin jeep
Oh, it's SUPER easy to shoot .5 MOA with any stock Savage. There are a couple things, & one EASY little trick. First, tailor reloads to each particular rifle. Then find a nice comfy spot to sit. Now the little secret trick. What ya do is go online, and simply LIE YOUR BUTT OFF!! It's SO SIMPLE! EVERY single one of mine have been .5 MOA, including the couple dozen AK-47s I've built in my life.
Dang Dave,
That's sure the easy way, but then you don't get to waste copious amounts of frustration, time, effort, powder, primers, bullets, and money.
What's the fun in that :)
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
If your going to lie why stop at .5 MOA ? Surely you can lie better than that!
Wait...you mean like building a rifle yourself, learning to reload, develop the most accurate you can for said rifle and tell everyone the ACTUAL group size? REGARDLESS OF MOA??? Hmm... You know, that idea just might work! By Joe! I just might be able to pull it off. I already built the rifle, have the beginnings of load development. All I have to do is go shoot some groups and TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT THE GROUP SIZE! Boy oh boy I hope this works!
a half inch rifle will be a two inch rifle w/o the correct load/bullet, esp sporter barrels. even heavy barrels prefer some bullets. i find that the bullet makes as much difference as everything else combined. you simply cannot make a barrel like a load/bullet if it doesnt want to.
Never owned a half inch factory gun. Of course I've always had the dumbest dog and got the worst gas mileage.
lol. I hear ya! Owned a lot of Savage rifles but only two were truly less than 1" moa rifles using factory ammunition. The first was a 300 WSM and the second was a 223 BVSS.
I think I've only purchased a dozen or so boxes of factory ammo over the last 45 years and they were to shoot up and reuse the brass. There was a time I didn't have the time to hunt so I sold off all my reloading and casting equipment. After about 5 or 6 years I began getting out hunting again so the last 2 boxes were Hornady 30-06 Super Performance 165 gr. SST. I did shoot a 5 shot group with them barely an Inch at 100 yards. I told a friend of mine that we needed to start reloading because I felt handicapped using Factory ammo, he just looked at me like I was crazy because his only experience with handloads was not good. He had had quite a few that would not fire and they were not that accurate he said. I told him that I had a total of 2 that did not fire and that was when I was first loading when I was 14 years old, I miss handled the primers and contaminated them. My brother and I started loading with a Lee Loader and we taught ourselves how to load, by reading loading books, yes we read books for info back then, no Internet.
Well back to my friend, I also told him that since that the only duds were from factory ammo and that was just as many as the reloads. Lets see 240 rounds of new 2 duds, over 20,000 handloads 2 duds, you do the math. Well he is like some others here on this site who never believes anything unless he has done it himself, but it was cheaper to load than to buy new for his 30-06 so we went in on a loading set. He has loaded thousands of rounds of ammo since then and we have upgraded our loading equipment and we each have our own now. He now feels that his reloads are far superior to factory ammo, and will only shoot them for hunting.
Or, I can just give up, call you a liar and tell myself and everyone in the world it can't be done. Meanwhile, all of your rifles shoot, and mine don't. At least I don't feel like I failed at something.
i have three swifts, two .223, one .243 and two lrpr 6br and they all wil print at most half inch groups measured center to center with proper loads. proper loads is the key here. i just measured a set of 6br lrpv target w/ 7 diff powder loads with 68g bergers 4 shot groups (this is statistically best for the buck). 4 measure 3/4 -1", two 1/2-3/4, and one .25. with the other rifles u can add 1/4 inch on the low side and 1" on the hi side w/ experimental loads. the two 6br are factory bull, two are mcgowen w/ sporter barrels and six are factory w/ light varmint to standard varmint barrels w/ minimum 18x scope on hi side w/ bench rest equipment.
it may take me all day plus some (bench is 25' out the front door) and sometimes much frustration ( so many variables involved) to find the best load but they wil eventually get there if i do my part. then its incredible when you hit the correct load. we call it "putting them to sleep"
also, you wil never know the full potential til you shoot at night w/ zero wind.
there are other brands that some of the rifles wil do that but the odds are with savage, hands down.
there are tons of info to assist in accuracy
here is a good start
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Precision-Sh...-/222065772986
and after you find the best load try this
http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...torque-tuning/
most times it improves.....sometimes it doesnt
best advice is get into benchrest competition where you can learn from the best
the principles are the same for benchrest or sporter
Last edited by 1953greg; 12-05-2016 at 11:58 AM.
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And if I choose not to believe you, I can say you just made random shots at a piece of paper until you got lucky and had some touch... and taped over the rest of them.
If I choose to believe you, and actually enjoy the goofy hobby of load development, I could pick up my own rifle and do the same.
If I don't truly enjoy the process, I'd be a masochistic fool to mess with it. :)
I know that this is the Internet and that I am certainly lying about what I am about to post just to boost my story telling status, but here we go any how.
In the early 80's a good friend of mine that shot, reloaded and hunted with me had a 700 Remington BDL in 25-06 and that rifle with his handloads would shoot. I remember one day we decided to go to the sight in day at our local Fish and Game Club. We thought we would be there forever because of the amount of people. That was not the case as they had 3 berms set up with 15 to 20 targets each and would ask what range you wanted to start at and using there spotting scope would show you on a target at the bench where you hit. They had been at it for quite some time when we got there and I can remember one individual shooting a 300 win. mag. who had been fighting for 2 long to get it hitting were he wanted, not sure if it was him or his equipment but dang he had some bad groups.
Well I was up before my buddy, I had 2 rifles with me, one was a Sporterized 1903 Springfield with a Weaver 3-9 scope and the other was my dads Sako Finnbear 30-06 with a Redfield 2-7 Wideveiw. I shot the old 1903 first, I was using Remington brass, CCI 200 primers, Speer 165gr Boattails with 60 grains of H-205 powder. I told the guy I wanted to be 1.5" high at 100 and shot a couple making adjustments till it was 1.5" centered above the bull. I shot 5 bullets the group was barely under an inch around Center to center would be less. I figured the barrel was shot up so was not surprised with the group size. Next was the Sako with the same rounds same sight in a couple with minor adjustments and 5 shot group could be covered with a dime. Now things got interesting. My buddy using his 25-06 not sure the Scope or his load but he had been working it up that summer while chuck hunting I do think it was a 120gr boattail. he shot one and it was right were he wanted it so they had him shoot again and told him they could not see were he hit so they checked targets around his and saw no new holes, they told him he must have missed, we just shook our heads and gave the guy a funny smirk. He shot a third and the spotter said wait a minute the hole just grew, he had put 3 virtually threw the same hole. He did not shoot another as we said to the guy "should be close enough to hit a deer" he laughed and said "that should be close enough to knock a flee off a Deer's backside" his choice of words were slightly different though.
He took time to talk about our loads and try to get us to come up for their egg shoots, I guess he had seen some pretty scary shooting that day.
Nice shooting Jim.
I love this thread.
Ok, I have owned a rifle that did not shoot, it was a 243 New England Arms rifle with the 3 barrels 243, 22lr and 20 gauge, I got it in a trade with one of my sons. I never shot it but he told me it would only print 6" groups at 100, so I took his word for it. I researched the Rifle and found out that was normal for that rifle in the 243. I sold the set for $80.00 and put the money into a CVA Scout 44 Mag Rifle that I could shoot my cast 295 gr GCHP that I used for my Ruger SRH 9.5" with Burris 2-7 Scope, I have not tried to change anything with the load as I want to use the handgun load. It shoots 1.5" 3 shot groups @ 100 with the Cabelas Alpha 3-9 scope I put on it and I can ring the 6" gong all day long at 200 with it so I am more than Happy with it for Hunting in the woods at 100 yards or less. Oh yeah my SRH does not shoot under an Inch at 100 either, it will shoot 5/8" to 3/4" at 25 yards with the same load as the rifle and I have no problem ringing the 6" gong at 200 every time, well almost every time.
It seems to me most can be got to shoot but it takes re-loads to do it.
I am accepting the challenger and will get the pencil 06 barrel back on the 116 and wee what I can come up with.
On known good loads it fell flat on its face though.
I have a .223 F/TR that will easily do .5 MOA with a particular Varget load and Berger Match bullets, fire formed cases, turned necks with sorting by pressure back on the seating, Redding Competition bushing die and absolutely minimal runout. Not so with any, and I mean any, factory ammo.
The same thing about handloads holds true with any modern centerfire rifle.
A rifle either likes the load or it doesn't, very often regardless of the cost of the rifle or the ammo. Some combinations work and some just don't
As a suggestion, I have several -06s that love IMR4350 and 165gr Sierra Game King HPBTs with a CCIbr2 primer.
My best accuracy in my out of the box 116 came at a 57gr Max charge weight which is shown as a max load for 155/168gr bullets. My older Nosler manual also shows this as their most accurate powder tested and their most accurate charge weight. That's why I chose that powder as my starting point and then worked my way up. Of course they're data calls for using Nosler bullets and Winchester LR primers. Initially the load was very good following the Nosler recipe, but once I changed around a few components, Voila one ragged hole. This does not mean that this load wont shoot giant groups out of your rifle and it may take a while to find what yours likes but this basic recipe has worked very well for me in more than 1 rifle. Sierra also has accuracy loads listed in their manual that I have found can be a good place to start.
Good luck
A good wife and a steady job has ruined many a great hunter.
I've had 3-4 that were right around a half inch, give or take a tenth(likely me falling short on my part. All of the rifles were model 12's (my favorite), all heavy barrels (varmint weight or heavier), and all were shooting rifle specific worked up loads. The two in particular that were consistent half inch or better rifles were not, off the shelf, and one had an aftermarket barrel. One was a m12 LRP in 6.5 crmr, glass bedded, with a brake my gs installed, and the other is a m12 with a 1:8 twist 22-250 match chambered stainless barrel my gs made up using a bartlein varmint contour blank. It is also glass bedded in a manners t5 stock, and it loves the 80gr vld load I worked up. It's probably my favorite rifle, and a coyotes death sentence. I'll get the pics from my old phone and post them later.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There is no need to prove how well one can shoot.....The main problem with internet sharpshooters is that they taint the reputations of the fella's that can make a factory rifle perform well above average. Yes, some people here and there can make that factory rifle sing......and they do frequent internet gun forums. Heck, the quest for accuracy is why most of us are involved in shooting and reloading. But, in general, many more claims of consistent 1/2" accuracy from a factory rifle are simply not true. I've had a few factory rigs that would occasionally shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards but that doesn't make it a 1/2" gun......Usually more like 3/4" to 1" average......I'm talking factory rifles here............not one that's been worked over from stem to stern with little semblance of what it was when it rolled off the assembly line.
The gun club I belong to has hundreds of members that shoot there a lot....Many old, retired guys with nothing better to do than hit the range (I hope to be one of them some day!)......We host a lot of matches.....BR, UBR, Rim fire benchrest, service rifle, IDPA you name it......but there's on common theme whether I'm looking at informal targets or match targets....The consistent 1/2" factory rifle, is a rare bird. Of course there is a much larger cross section of people on the internet who love to shoot and reload so I would definitely expect there to be some ringers out there. But as far as the average gun forum board member goes, in general, I take such claims with a grain of salt. Pictures really prove nothing because anyone can make a target look good with creative editing or stretching the truth about the distance that it was shot at. There's no reason to think that any of the guys replying to this thread are lying......but for every one of you there are 100 guys out there claiming 1/2" factory guns that are simply no where near that accurate.
.....and don't get me started on folks who say just because they called a flyer it doesn't belong in the group....if it came out of the muzzle while you were shooting that group it counts, there's no way around it.
....oh and by the way....Here's my 1/2" factory gun......
Every single hole in the paper measures 1/2"!!!!!
Last edited by Damon555; 12-05-2016 at 05:36 PM.
I had a K98 action with a Sako 243 barrel on it when I was 13, it had a fixed 8 Power Weaver Scope on it and the guy was getting rid of it because it did not shoot. He said it was all over the paper at 100 yards.Well we checked out the barrel it was bright and showed no sign of wear and the action seemed tight enough to us, so we took a chance on it. We shot Factory 100 grain out of it, that was just before I got a Lee Loader and started reloading my own. Well at the range we found out the guy was right, it never put 2 bullets in the same place. We brought it home and made sure all scope mounts were tight and then checked the stock for free floating barrel. The stock was swelled so much it was putting excess pressure on the barrel not allowing the barrel to come to the same spot after each shot. We ground out and sanded the barrel channel till we could pass 2 bills between the stock and barrel. Then we sealed the wood with a clear finish. We checked the next day and we could still pass a dollar bill all the way to the action with no binding then off to the range. Ok here I go again after sight in my father had me shoot 5. All 5 we covered with a dime. That was with factory ammo, now was that rifle a 1/2" rifle, well it was as long as I shot it without moving off center and the ammo was working with the set up. Now if someone else took that same rifle and shot 2" groups does that make it a 2" rifle? I guess for that person it does, but it still does not change the fact it was capable of shooting 1/2" groups at 100. Factory Sporterized Rifles are usually lighter with lighter thinner barrels and they are not as forgiving for each shooter. The heavier the set up and the lighter the trigger the less movement will be involved with the average shooter, thus it is more forgiving and easier to shoot consistent 1/2" groups and with some who are steadier and work their loads for the rifle are capable of the same at 200.
It's pretty sad.... We've got 4 pages of grown men that believe that they are so good that anyone who claims to be able to do something better is just labeled a liar or cheater lol
Some of you say it's easier to lie and cheat but to me it looks like it's even easier to lable anyone who can do something you can't a lying liar that lies....
Seems allot don't want to put the work in then blame it on the gear when they don't see what others claim.
Fans of the every child gets a trophy movement I guess...
Maybe I'm just too trusting but my bullshit detector doesn't even start ticking until .25 w/ tailored reloads. I'm not very good and dont compete but have no problem averaging .5 or better. I was excited about a single group being under 1 moa per range trip before I started taking reloading and load workup seriously, then it was a .5 that would get me excited. Now after throwing 2-300 rds per month at paper for a couple of years and buying a 36x target scope I expect half inch after load workup and get excited about the occasional .2 group.
Yes I'm grouchy sorry lol. I just woke up for another 12hr night shift on just a couple of hours of sleep due to deer season.
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