Reply With QuoteRunning heavier bullets subsonic won't get you much range. Dropping decent at 100 yards.
Kicking around the idea of a hunter built for use with subsonic ammo and a suppressor.
Not very knowledgeable so open to suggestions, here's what I'm thinking so far-
Looking at rounds like the 300 Blackout, 458 Socom, 308 win, 338 Federal etc. Have thought about a 7.62x39 using heavy cast bullets as well, bolt action so not worried about cycling.
Lethality wise would like to be able to take medium sized game at decent ranges, what kind of expectations are realistic?
Seems like with a subsonic slug you're looking at muzzleloader type ballistics, punch a big hole in and out, is that about correct?
Have a spare SA that is currently a .473 boltface but not worried about changing that.
Thinking a fairly compact rifle, basic synthetic stock, 16.5" barrel, something like a simple Leupold 4x etc.
Will be handloading, not opposed to casting bullets.
Obviously just an idea at this point, welcome to comments.
Running heavier bullets subsonic won't get you much range. Dropping decent at 100 yards.
Yeah I expected that, crunched the numbers a little:
.338 250gr bullet @1100 fps with a 75 yard zero keeps you within about 3" high or low from 50 to 100 yards with about 600 ft/lbs of energy.
Jumping to a .338 300gr bullet bumps the energy to about 750 ft/lbs.
A .458 400gr bullet keeps about the same trajectory and 900 ft/lbs.
By comparison a .45 ACP with a 230gr bullet has 350-450 ft/lbs at the muzzle. Seems like if you held a Colt to a deer it would do the job.
Anyone have more experience with this?
Might as well use a dang cross bow. The only thing I see useful with that is poaching and that's exactly what Mr greenjeans is going to think also. The game you hunt deserve a clean death. And the shock from super sonic bullet is what does it. Ask some of the guys that have lost deer from taking to long of a shot with a slug gun or a smoke pole once they drop sub they don't kill near as well. Well they kill but hours later once you have no chance of recovery.
Fortunately hunting with a suppressor is finally gaining acceptance and becoming legal in more and places in this country. No-one is advocating breaking the law in any way.
Re subsonic ammo, I certainly agree that more care needs to be taken, hence the questions in this thread. Do you think that a 230 grain bullet fired from a 45ACP at point blank range would be unethical to use on deer- honest question.
The problem you have with subsonic ammo, or in your comparison, pistol ammo is the lack of terminal damage. A bullet hitting at over 1,000 lbs of knockdown power at 2,000 to 2,500 fps (at close ranges etc) is doing a lot more damage than a 30, 33, 45 caliber lead just punching through something. The displacement of tissue etc is is the big difference.
That said, a buddy of mine had shot deer with the same setup your referring to. 7mm I believe. Running a heavy bullet in a fast twist barrel. Has had good luck but only used on close shots to test and has supersonic ammo with for longer shots. He was just testing and knew the zero of the subs compared to the regular ammo.
If you want to try it I say go for it. Keeping those thoughts of knockdown power and range in mind. If you hunt close it isn't a real issue. Where I hunt your shots average 200-300 yds. Obviously outside of subsonic ranges.
A well placed bullet will kill literally anything....but so can a well placed rock
I will add I hunt suppressed. And that alone with supersonic ammo makes a big difference in noise for me at the shooters position
The biggest problem with subsonic ammo is the lack of bullets that will expand at subsonic speeds. The only bullet I'm aware of, that MAY work, is made by Lehigh Defense. I have a couple boxes (it's stupid expensive) to try on some hogs or maybe a doe this season. I just finished a 300BLK SBR that I'm shooting suppressed. Those subsonic rounds (even other brands) typically drop 11" from my 100yd zero with supers. At 75yds it's about a 7" drop. I love the idea of being able to whisper-quietly take out a sounder of hogs in one sitting; but, like so many things, the idea and reality are very far apart. Lol. Sure, a non expanding bullet will kill if placed properly. The problem is: recovering an animal that was able to run 100 yards without any blood trail at all.
Honestly, I'd give up on the idea of hunting with subsonics. Hunting suppressed with standard velocity (supersonic) ammo is SO pleasant that, once you try it, you'll never want to hunt without a suppressor. Game has a VERY difficult time discerning where a shot came from out of a suppressed rifle. The only thing they hear is the sonic crack and not the sound of the rifle firing. This tends to confuse them and I've had deer and hogs stand there, not knowing which way to run. Lol. Best of all, though, is the recoil reduction - it's better than most brakes and you don't need muffs! If you choose the route of shooting regular a no with a suppressor, you can use the billet of your choice and the only range limitations are your ability and your cartridge's capability. Build something in the 6.5mm family, develop a good load, thread on a Thunderbeast or Crux .30 cal suppressor and start knocking down deer out to 700yds.....or more.
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That's what I was thinking is you use a can fine. Just use what you always use. Its still going to crack but not boom. The only reason for complete silence is if your doing something you might better not do anyways. And if your real close 35-50 yards you don't hear the crack much anyway if any..Originally Posted by BrushyHillGuide
The biggest problem with subsonic ammo is the lack of bullets that will expand at subsonic speeds. The only bullet I'm aware of, that MAY work, is made by Lehigh Defense. I have a couple boxes (it's stupid expensive) to try on some hogs or maybe a doe this season. I just finished a 300BLK SBR that I'm shooting suppressed. Those subsonic rounds (even other brands) typically drop 11" from my 100yd zero with supers. At 75yds it's about a 7" drop. I love the idea of being able to whisper-quietly take out a sounder of hogs in one sitting; but, like so many things, the idea and reality are very far apart. Lol. Sure, a non expanding bullet will kill if placed properly. The problem is: recovering an animal that was able to run 100 yards without any blood trail at all.
Honestly, I'd give up on the idea of hunting with subsonics. Hunting suppressed with standard velocity (supersonic) ammo is SO pleasant that, once you try it, you'll never want to hunt without a suppressor. Game has a VERY difficult time discerning where a shot came from out of a suppressed rifle. The only thing they hear is the sonic crack and not the sound of the rifle firing. This tends to confuse them and I've had deer and hogs stand there, not knowing which way to run. Lol. Best of all, though, is the recoil reduction - it's better than most brakes and you don't need muffs! If you choose the route of shooting regular a no with a suppressor, you can use the billet of your choice and the only range limitations are your ability and your cartridge's capability. Build something in the 6.5mm family, develop a good load, thread on a Thunderbeast or Crux .30 cal suppressor and start knocking down deer out to 700yds.....or more.
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That's a broad statement.
Some people like to make the biggest boom, while some like to be as quiet as they can - just because.
Rick_W
CPO-USN(Ret)
You don't know what you don't know.
Yeah that struck me as well, disappointing to hear such a shallow argument so often used by the anti gun lobby in general- why do you need a suppressor at all unless you're up to no good? Why do you need a 30 round mag unless you want to kill people? Why do you need to carry unless you want to start something- I only want a quiet car so the cops can't hear me driving away from a bank heist. I don't wear tap shoes so the mugging victims don't hear me sneaking up on them etc, not used to that kind of negativity here.
Will keep looking into this, obviously a lot more digging to do, thanks for the great suggestions.
Don't listen to the negative stuff people say. If this is what you want then build it. Only thing different from non suppressed is its a bit quieter. Not silent by any means. If you want to try subsonic ammo then do it. If you decide it's not for you then crank up the speed.
One thing to remember tho is try your sub loads without the suppressor first. If they don't stabilize you'll find out without destroying your can. That goes for factory or hand loaded subs
Thanks- good heads up re tumbling I honestly wouldn't have thought it would cause an effect so soon.
Bullet yaw can happen immediately out of the muzzle. With tolerances tight in the bore of most suppressors, this can lead to baffle strikes, blown tubes, and an unservicable can. I have hunted with cans and supersonic ammo. I see no need to go with subs, but think a suppressed and subsonic 44 Rem Mag would be a lot of fun to mess with in the deer woods. The only thing I use subs in is my rimfire squirrel rifle.
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. ... Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.<br /><br />Thomas Jefferson
I like the idea of.the can. Putting the.deal together for.one for my grendel hog gun. but I will most.certainly use supersonic ammo.
No need for hearing protection is one.of the great points and should be utilized to eliminate this silly NFA law.
You hardly notice a suppressed rifle shot 100 yards away even with supersonic.ammo. when you are hog hunting at night it reduces the likelihood of interruption by law enforcement even though you are doing.nothing illegal. The sound of a rifle shot at night just seems louder and certainly attracts attention.
I am in the process of setting up my 10FP in 308. Picked up a threaded barrel and now working on getting the suppressor. Not sure that I'll hunt with subsonic though. I wanted to do this simply to get away from having to wear hearing protection. If you want to hunt with subsonics, have at it, there is nothing wrong with it, just keep the shots close.
There's a couple places that make expanding projectiles for sub use. Outlaw State is one, Blackout Bullets is another. I have some of the BB, they expand well.
I personally would have no qualms about taking one of our small black tail deer with one. We brush hunt and most shots are 50 yards or less. I would wait for a good broadside and send it. I would not lob one out there at an unreasonable distance.
With respect to suppressed fire of supersonic's, it's awesome. My Harvester on my .308 or 30-06 sounds about like a .22 mag. I still use earplugs at the range but it's much more pleasant in the field. The recoil is knocked down to .22-250 levels also which is a nice benefit. The down sides are the extra length, POI shift between suppressor off and on, and significant heat buildup introducing mirage after 3-4 rounds.
All in all I love mine. It's beyond all comprehension why these things are NFA items other than Uncle Sugar wants your $200.
Chalk it up to Al Capone and John Dillenger and the Tommy gun of the gangster Era
Or prohibiton just like the drug war of today has militarized our police force
Look you guys are starting to act like a bunch of liberals. The guy said a can build for a HUNTING RIG! You don't need complete silent for a hunting RIG! You NEED power and penetration! You want to build a RIG to shoot without hurting your ears FINE! But for taking Game it is NOT a broad statement! The animal deserves better than half power loads. So stop being so dang defensive. I would be willing to bet I have more firearms than 90% on here so don't paint me as a Anti!
This is about advice for Hunting. Not playing or fantasy builds. If he is going to use a can fine. But use full loads who Cares if it's not completely silent. Unless you are doing something you shouldn't it doesn't matter..
Some great replies and good information here, thanks to all for posting.
Seems like there is some confusion/disagreement as well, going to clear that up then leave this alone.
The point of the thread was to obtain information re a suitable round for accuracy/lethality out to about a hundred yards for hunting medium sized game in a subsonic suppressed platform.
Yes I said hunting, subsonic and suppressed in the same sentence.
Does one NEED a suppressed round for hunting? No.
Does the round NEED to be subsonic and suppressed? NO.
Then why do it?
Because it sounds interesting. Just as we don't NEED guns that shoot 1/4", have 30 round mags etc etc etc.
I don't want to mitigate the accuracy issues a rifle has, I wan to eliminate them.
I don't want hand loads that are "kind of accurate".
I don't want a bullet that "mostly" performs well.
And I don't to use a suppressor to "lessen" the report, I'd prefer to use a subsonic round and gain the full effect.
Some will understand this, some will not- perfectly valid choices either way.
Have never used a suppressor, don't own one, haven't even started the paperwork to own one. At this point just gathering information. Thanks again for the great replies, if this ever turns into an actual project will definitely post an update.
If I were going subsonic hunting, I would definitely go with a big bore for anything other than small game (as hinted at by my 44 Rem Mag remark). Personally, I would go with the .338 Fed or 458 Socom from your list. Start by looking at compatible suppressors though. It would be no good to go 458 and not be able to get a can rated for it within whatever budget you have set. You could also look at the 338 Whisper. The smaller case may make it easier to go subsonic.
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. ... Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.<br /><br />Thomas Jefferson
A real good way to go is with a TC Encore frame. A 16" barrel is legal and makes for a very short package. A .458 Socom and a Bowers can would be a sweet rig.
I bet there are thousands of bison and hogs and deer that never took hours to die when hit with big heavy and, by some standards, slow bullets from the 45-70 through 45-100's that cleared plains of plains game a century ago. Nor would Vince Lupo agree on their ineffectiveness.
Having said that, I would not use the above mentioned rounds for deer either. If you put a 1/2" hole through both lungs, no animal is going to live for hours. A few minutes, maybe, but a lot of big game have run a long way with high powered 30 cal bullets that have zipped through them too. They are live creatures and sometimes they die easily, sometimes not.
Have seen hogs run a hundred yards after being shot with a 308 and seen em die in 20feet shot by an arrow. I killed a 400lb boar with my 55lb recurve, and single bevel broadhead. He barely made it 15yds. Fell three times getting there.
Blood loss kills, so the more you create, the faster they die. With a suppressor use a caliber that will get it done. 750ftlbs is not much energy. You want the bullet to go all the way through, on heavy slow rounds.
I blame Hollywood and the dreaded hitman's suppressed revolver.....
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