Reply With QuoteTried Hornady,Nikon and JBM?
I've been trying to find a ballistics calculator that will give me a bullet drop chart with MOA adjustments that match my observations from my handloads with no luck. Some close but no cookie. Close on one end or the other but not both. Am I doing something wrong or is this normal?
Thanks,
Tried Hornady,Nikon and JBM?
"An armed society is a polite society"
"...shall not be infringed" What's the confusion?
I've tried Hornady, the one on Long Range Hunting, PointBlank Ballistics, Vortex Long Range Ballistics Calculator, and just tried JBM.
You may need to tweak your velocity or bc to get the numbers your after. Air density could be an issue.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
How close to you expect it to get you? I shoot F class so my concern is making a scope adjustment from my 100 yd test data to a 600 yard match, realizing that I just need to get on paper to start with since we get several sighters to zero in on the X. However, without getting too involved with entering temperatures or pressures (which I could do if necessary) I nearly always put the first round within 2 MOA (often half that) with a cold bore shot using a generic fouling round. That may not be good enough for situation where you need an accurate hit from the first round, but by entering temperature and altitude and using a round made to my normal competition ammo standards along with known MV data I could be more accurate.
What are you expecting?
This will be pretty much the case regardless of the program you use. I use JBM but don't think it better or worse than others.Originally Posted by Robinhood
Depends on the individual, and the type of shooting or competition, as to the importance of precise data and first round hits.
It may come as a surprise to some, but at least whitetail deer don't always just run off when a bullet hits very close to them.
To the contrary, ive often watched them sniff the ground where the bullet hit.
Learning to shoot fast and accurately will get better results than worrying about precise data.
Maybe that is the part that I'm missing, temp - altitude - air pressure. The numbers are close. I suppose I will just need to print off a couple of charts and then start keeping close notes as to field observations to get corrected data. I just hunt rock chucks, rabbits and coyotes, small targets, and I don't like to miss.
Thanks, this has been helpful.
Strelok Pro has it, for about $10 to Igor Borisov. The guy is fabulous about updates, and adds new info about every week, to tweak the program.
My preferred app is "Shooter", but as already stated with any app you need to true ballistics as well as your weather data. Using an accurate Denisty Altitude will show you how your data at distances varies a little bit as the weather changes. I think it's more important on the East Coast as the humidity and pressure fluctuates a lot more than the dry and arid temps out west. Based on my recent experience. If you have a good range that you can true your data with 5-6 distances from 600yds out to 1000yds it always made my adjustments much more accurate in the calculator.
This is all true and very good advise.
However, (experts) have been writing books on wind reading for how long now? Which of coarse is another big factor, probably even the biggest.
And still we have (experts) writing about reading the wind.
What works well for those who can, is sighter shots. And yes, even when hunting, sighter shots can and should if possible be taken.
Nothing works better than a sighter shot to asertain current information. Laugh all you want, but a first shot miss is also a sighter shot if you take advantage of it.
Nobody has ever knocked on our door and asked if the deer hanging at our camp were 1 shot kills, and yes, the gravey tastes the same.
It's perfectly acceptable to stuff the magazine full on our old 99s before we head to our favorite stump someplace.
But lord help us if we don't make a first round DRT kill way over there. Its another case of mind over matter.
Dang, I thought I had it figured out and quickly ran more numbers after work. My velocity was off (according to my chrono) by 100fps. and while I'm sighted in for 100 yards my bullets hit a little bit high and I've not taken that into account in the calculator. When that info in, the numbers don't improve. In fact, they seem to get worse. I'm just missing something but will figure it out eventually.
Thanks again.
Measure your scope distance above the bore accurately before using a bal calc.
Lonewolf's post is spot on. These apps are only as good as the info that's input. Not sure what Chrono you're using for velocity, but the only thing I really trust anymore is a magnetospeed or a Labradar. Making darn sure you have a solid zero is also very important. Using one of Litz's BCs helps too, as they're usually slightly different than the manufacturer depending on what bullet you're using. Measuring your scope height, accurate atmospherics, all of these things play a huge roll, as well as ensuring you have an accurate target distance. Once you get it trued up though, it's great. I can take a few readings from my kestrel, a range from my Sig Kilo, and be confident that my elevation will put me on target, every time. The rest is just wind. I use Shooter as well. And I've been playing with Trasol a little bit off and on. Shooter is what I use when it matters though.
This is also an important factor in the equation. Probably the one most often overlooked!
Yobuck I'm done responding to your posts concerning Long Range hunting on this topic. Just trying to help the OP get his data together and not argue a concept that doesn't apply to the question asked.... I'm sure you'll respond with an argument, but I'm not even going to read your next post.....
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Do as Lonewolf suggested.
You could even omit the chrony, guess the velocity for a chart, and just go shoot at some rocks someplace.
If it takes 30 clicks to hit the 500 rock, that's what it is, at least today at this very moment.
Tomorrow could be 28 or 32, and who cares, and what good would it do anyway.
Remember this, as recently as 20 years ago very few people even had chronys.
For sure none had any computer programs, and Brian Litz had yet to inform anybody.
It aint hard, almost anybody can do it. But you gotta go do it, and not just read about it.
My first (click chart) as they are still called where I am, was given to me by a friend by name of Frank Weber.
Frank was even then a top competitor at Williamsport, then shooting a 6.5x300 Weatherby, and this was in 1973.
I didn't have a 6.5x300 Weatherby, but had a 7x300 Weatherby. He said here is a copy of my chart which will get you real close.
Just tune it up as you go and you will be fine. You know what? the chart was closer than my ability to see much difference.
Velocities were similar, BCs were similar, but there was 23 grains difference in bullet weights. Yet using the same chart you could at least get on paper at 1000 yds.
And shooting is shooting Lonewolf, wether it be at a target or an animal.
yobuck, pm's are full...
The true BC is determined by the velocity of a particular rifle, not Brian Litz or anybody else.
Which is why some bullet makers like Cutting Edge for example don't list BC numbers.
They sound good, and like other things in life they can help sell a product.
For sure the most accurate information is better than less accurate information, and I'm not advocating not trying to obtain that.
But all of that aside, and speaking only to those who hunt, realize that while your obtaining your perfect data for the perfect first round hit,
the animal might well have moved 100 yds requiring different data. Its also very possible that move could have taken it into an area where you wont be seeing it again.
Also be aware that the ammo stored in your vehicle is affected by temperature changes, and none of your equiptment can tell you how much.
Are you aware of what powders are most affected by that? Ill tell you one good way to find out. Frankly, its the only way to find out.
You can choose to listen to experts, many of who are also nonpartisipents as hunters. Or you can choose to just listen, and then go hunt, and find out for yourself.
your wrong....heres the BC on the cutting edge 115g 6mm bullet....which is pretty sad for the price!
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-b...on&key=MTH_K02
I'm pretty sure they went to Brian Litz in order to determine the BC's accurately as well actually....
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buck already covered that...
I don't just listen. I don't hunt either though. Not currently anyway. I do, however shoot. Quite often. And almost always between 500 and 1200 yards. And most of it is done on a clock at a match. 10 rounds in 90 seconds is typical. You can preach your way all day long, and talk down about Ballistic apps/engines almost you want. The fact remains that I can go out wherever, with my 6.5 Creedmoor, my data (ballistic app on my phone), a Kestrel, and a rangefinder, and make solid hits and most any distance inside 1200 yards with no issues. Doesn't matter what the weather is today, tomorrow, or next week. The kestrel will give me that info real time. Just because you don't care to utilize any of the modern advancements in the shooting / ballistics world, doesn't mean they're useless. Quite the contrary, actually.
That's what he doesn't get. He's probably shot 1000's of rounds in 3 decades at those distances. We've shot 1000's of rounds at those distances in just a few years and the tools available have made us better shooters in a hurry. It's amazing what a product produced by a Rocket Scientist who loves shooting is capable of....
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and some of us have shot 1000s of rounds in a few months lol!! i just looked back and i put the 6mm creed together on july 2nd of this year and as of last saturday have 1125 rounds through it now...so 110 days and if we want to be technical its actually only 31 days because i can only shoot on the weekends...works out to a little over 36 rounds per day.
very well put but the problem is some ppl are so set in their ways they wont even try anything new.
The Cutting Edge facility is located in Drifting PA. The owners name is Dan Smitco, and its less than an hour from our camp.
Ive been there, had the tour, and watched them being made. At that time, which was about 4 years back they were not advertising BC numbers and he told me why.
I'm sure there would be lots of label readers who need to know that type information, and possibly
that changed their way of thinking on that, but that dosent change any facts.
If you want a true picture of what bullet performs better at say 1500 yds, there is only one good way of doing that. And its the same way as getting an exact zero for your gun, but again, to each his own.
For the record I don't use Cutting Edge bullets, i have tried them and find the plain jane SMKs and Hornadys work just fine in my guns.
But, from what I'm told, by the now few people I know who still shoot in the matches, custom bullets are what is primarily being used.
But I can tell you the walls in that facility have lots of enviable elk and mule deer trophys hanging on them.
All taken in Idaho by him and his group by long range hunting, and supposedly with his bullets. Now call me old, or whatever you choose, but if I wanted information on where to go and how to kill a nice elk long range, id be asking somebody like him, even though he isn't a (ahem) shooter. For sure I wouldn't seek out someone who does pretty good in f class shooting, who also owns a rangefinder and a Kestral. But that's just me, and I am aware were in the information age.
I'm also aware of the importance of accurate information for competition where sighters aren't permitted, even though I consider that just plain dumb. I'm also familiar with rangefinders of every type, having owned them and used them for more years than most reading this have been breathing. In fact, if you ever decide your rangefinder is the best, bring it around, and we can compare rangefinders. I'm also aware of what a Kestral is and what it does and how it works, but bring that around also.
As for the number of rounds shot and barrels burned up, that's actually meaningless as to this discussion. Fact is many average Joe shooters can become very competitive in a reasonably short period of time if he or she dedicates themselves to that. Number of rounds fired don't count, results count, and some will always be better at that than others, regardless of round count.
And the fact also is average Joe shooter is probably already good enough to shoot far better at long range than he realizes. And that statement alone is where much of the disagreement here stems from. Interpet that anyway you choose.
In summation ill just say this. If a person wants to go all out in an attempt to get the best information possible for dialing first round hits that's perfectly fine and why should it not be. But realize that you still wont always be making first round hits. And also realize regardless of what your being led to believe here, you could still make a very high percentage of them, even if you didn't have a Kestral and an iPhone with the latest program and for some of us, that's fine also. We have several iphones in our camp by the way, and I'm very familiar with them. They are fine if you have time, but don't count on that when hunting. What counts is score, or in this case dead animals.
Send one over there and have another in your hand ready as the empty case is coming out. You will likely have it on the ground before Dr Whozeewatzit over there gets his half arsed wind reading.
And it will be half arsed where I hunt, and you can take that fact to the bank and cash it.
Go to a 1000yd benchrest match and count the gadgets for determing shooting conditions. Then watch them shoot. Pretty much all those guys at least in PA also hunt long range. Ask them about that also.
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