Reply With QuoteIf it works someone will use it, I would rather spend more money on a quality barrel than a gimmick hoping it helps....
been reading about some of the barrel tuning devices, such as the smartstock type tuner, any comments
Chet
If it works someone will use it, I would rather spend more money on a quality barrel than a gimmick hoping it helps....
You won't see a .22 rimfire competition bench gun without oneOriginally Posted by LoneWolf
Only a matter of time before centerfire rifles have them
THey make sense to me. Handload the best you cen and then fine-tune the barrel. I have an A-bolt with BOSS, pretty much the same thing. Works great.
It makes sense with rimfire because you can't tune a rimfire load.... it makes sense with and older rifle that you may not want to or can't change the barrel on due to cost. But high quality barrels are normally very easy to load for!
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That is what load development is all about. Finding that harmonic node
All the different muzzle devices, flash hiders, muzzle brakes, cans effect the harmonics. You just don't know if it will be good or bad
No, you DO know. It will be good. It adjusts to tune the barrel. First you develop a load, then you adjust the tuner to improve it. They work.
They might not be necessary, but they work.
If you notice a tuner was not one of my muzzle devices
If you are saying.you can adjust a muzzle brake or can like a tuner I stand corrected
Like already said like the boss it works. I have a BAR with a boss and you can close up the groups with any ammo I have run threw it. Yet like said with a Savage rifle just get a good barrel for it. But they do work I was amazed how well.
There are people working on it. Remains to be seen if it ever hits the mainstream. Boss was 1st generation. Pretty massive though.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...its-of-tuners/
^^^My aopologies if I sounded argumentative or disrespectful. I "JUMPED" on you when I was merely trying to be succinct.
I understood you to say tuners were like any other muzzle device that affects barrel harmonics somewhat arbitrarily.... sometimes good, sometimes bad. Well, they are not. Barrel tuners are adjustable and therefore NOT like other muzzle devices.
I plan to do some experimenting maybe in making one.
My model that is in the back of my mind would be a
sound director, as well as a tuner.
Many years ago, a friend bought an Enfield Jungle carbine and
we went to shoot it. I thought it was going to be very loud,
because it had an 18 inch barrel, and all high powered rifles
I had witnessed with short barrels were really loud. To my
surprise this Jungle carbine shooting 303 British military ball
was not bad at all on the sound level to the shooter or anyone
behind the gun. Link to picture of the gun:
https://www.google.com/search?q=enfi...IGK4RXZdeVM%3A
I figured the reason for the sound not being loud was that
funnel type flash hider on the muzzle. I believe it directed
the sound out away from the shooter going forward. Maybe
if you stood in front of it, it might even be louder, I don't
know, but it worked.
Now-a-days there are a number of concussion type attachments
that go on the muzzle and I think they do the same thing, just
direct the sound forward. There is one that actually calls itself
a sound director. Link to that one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/381352984287...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
The inside of this director has that funnel shape to it, like the old
jungle carbine.
So here is what I am thinking of making, Make a slip on cylinder that
goes over the muzzle, that adds several inches of length to the barrel,
and its inside diameter should be at least as large as the outside of the
barrel, but you could make it larger. This expanded tube added to the
barrel should direct the sound forward, and reduce the concussion.
Now on the bottom of it maybe weld a nut pointing so a bolt screwed in the
nut is parallel to the barrel. You can screw a short bolt into the nut. By using
different length bolts or washers you can change the weight. Try different ones
until you find the one that dampens the barrel vibrations right for whatever
ammo you are using.
Another way to adjust, to start off with about a 4 inch extension, and
shoot the gun for group. If the group is good, stop, if not, cut the
extension off about an 1/8 inch and try again. when you get to where
you are satisfied with the group quit. The disadvantage of this is that
it is set for only one load.
Doing this though, you get two benefits, and you can do it pretty cheap,
and I think I will try it shortly.
Added thought here, video of the jungle carbline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVO1Gp6BtJE
I am a believer in the concept and practice. According to Browning any round could benefit. I have seen claims of group size reductions of 40% at 100 yards plus up to a 34% reduction in recoil. The Browning BOSS was introduced in 1995 for calibers from .22-250 up to .338 Win Mag. Google The BOSS (Browning Optimization Shooting System) and look for the vids on YouTube.
Lets say it does tighten a 1 MOA group 40%, that is better than 3/8 of an inch at 100 yards - so 1 MOA becomes almost .6 MOA and it only gets better in terms of group size as you extend the range. At 1,000 yards your Group Circle would be 6.2 inches instead of 10 inches.
For an in depth discussion of barrel vibrations (not Browning stuff) visit Varmint Als site - Links are below. And check out his other areas of interest on the Left Sidebar.
His creds include almost 30 years as a structural engineer at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, you know, the place where all the special weapons in the US Arsenal are designed.
I am thinking about using the Micrometer Adjustment Locknut from a BOSS to calibrate the placement of a suppressor can that will function as the BOSS for "Tuning" the harmonics from my .30-06 Krieger Barrel.
http://www.varmintal.com/atune.htm and http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm
I have them on my bench rest .22lr rifles. they do work. now the reason behind how or why they work started a heated thread years ago. there are several ways to tune one as well. most agreed using three different speeds of ammo say like 1040fps,1060 and 1080 and tune till they all shot into one hole. it can and has been done for years. by tuning like that and testing ammo by lots, you will find more lots of ammo your rifle will shoot better.
I saw some people using a threaded barrel tuner on centerfires years ago. it was much different from the BOSS system. they said it did work for their hand loads just like it does for rimfires.
will it catch on? I bet money let one shooter tape a red feather to his barrel and have a winning season and others will be doing it next year! the rage would be color and thickness of the tape used!!! really, let one shooter have a winning year using a barrel tuner and you will start seeing more of them on centerfire rifles. that would be all it would take.
Your query about barrel tuners go me on a goose chase. Not sure if Beggs tuner is still available, or the one that mounts into the stock that you mention. Interesting concept though.
From I what I was able to dig up today, the biggest advantage to have a tuner is that you can load your ammo before your shooting event, and then use the tuner to adjust the load to the density altitude conditions the day of the shoot. Or even as the day warms during the shoot, you can adjust your barrel to account for the less dense air.
The numbers I read today were you REDUCE your load by .3 grain of powder for every 10 degrees F the temp rises (ref: Gene Beggs makes a big mistake, Benchrest Central, 4-23-10) and vice versa as temps drop OR atmospheric pressure increases such as after a cold front passes. This is in reference to that day your load was developed, of course.
So as I read it, you develop your load and record the temp and pressure of the day you shoot. Then adjust your load accordingly, or use a barrel tuner as shooting conditions differ.
It takes a 1000DA shift to adjust data .1 Mil and even that doesn't really have an affect until you get out to 600yds and beyond. Unless you're shooting very small targets or groups at distance I think you'd waste a lot of ammo trying to tune out all the other variables
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Good point, LoneWolf. The article was indeed about close in distance, 100 to 200 yds, and shooting 22ppc or 220 Russian into very small groups however, I don't see why it would not work to fine tune a load at long distance. In fact, when you think about it, a .2 moa improvement typically seen at 100 yds, translates into a 2 inch improvement at 1000 yds. and that might just be a game changer.
Not many guys out there can pinpoint a 2" shift at 1000yds... I know I can't.... but j can see where the last one hit if the first one misses!
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As Bill Calfee always said if you can stop the muzzle it will shoot. He was the man
http://rimfirebenchrest.com/articles...pedMuzzle.html
Did a little bit of shooting today with the LimbSaver De-resonator mounted to my 223 with 26 inch 8 twist Criterion barrel shooting 75 grain SMKs.
Could definitely see the groups tighten and then spread out as I moved it back from the muzzle. First thing that went away was the vertical spread. Best I got was a tight horizontal line at 200 yds. about 1/2 moa wide. Didn't have a lot of time or ammo to really play with it, but plan to in the future. Could be fun!
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