I'm considering neck turning some new brass I got for my .223.
I don't get something...
wouldn't reducing the outside diameter of the neck result in less tension?
I have my sizing die where I like, getting .002 shoulder bump. I can't turn it down more to get more neck tension if needed.
I'm sure that I'm not understanding something as I've never seen this question raised.
I do not have a collet type die, just a plain old RCBS F/L size die. Would I have to change that?
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Yes, you would have to buy bushing dies or a Lee collet die to change the neck tension. Conventional full-length sizing dies the neck tension is set by the expander ball.
For the first part of your question if you partially neck turn each piece so you just clean up the brass it won't adversely affect neck tension. Partially meaning approximately 30% give or take on each piece.
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Ditto
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no and no.Originally Posted by Texas Solo
but a simple test to easy your mind...measure a fired neck...pull the expander size a case and measure the neck....turn an old case size with the expander and measure...seat a bullet and measure again do the math and i bet your tension is the same.
to change neck tension you need different sized expander balls...turning 0.001 or so off the neck is not going to be enough to cause any issues like your worried about.
Here I go throwing ants in your candy....expander balls don't impact neck tension, it's the die throat that sets the tension. In the case of a fixed throat the tension is set, thats why you use a bushing die.
I never run expander balls in any die. They go in the die box and stay there along with the decap pin.
The only time an expander ball is used is on virgin brass for the first size. After that, the projectile leaving the case has already expanded the neck. All you need to to is reduce the diameter (in the sizing process) to the required neck tension.
Prove it to yourself, take a fired case and insert a pill....it drops in the neck because the neck is already expanded. Why work it again (more expansion) only to size it (contract it). Keep in mind that case brass workhardens as it's worked. No expander ball means you work the brass one time instead of 2 times.
Been doing it that way for decades....no expander ball at all.
an expander ball dont have an impact on neck tension?? LMAO...that coming from a guy with 40yrs of experience?..ive only been doing this for 10yrs or so and can tell you your wrong!!
you are right the die sizes the neck but the ball determines the final size of the neck hence the reason forster makes custom E-10 expanders and john widden makes custom expander ball sets like this one....
as far as bushings VS FL sizing thats a debate i dont like to get into but ive done both and i FL size every time...i do think bushing dies have their place and that would be in a VERY tight neck chamber where only about 0.004 or less sizing would be required....personally i wouldnt use a bushing die then either.
next time you talk to john widden ask him his thoughts on FL sizing VS neck sizing...i bet youll be surprised by what he says.
You do it your way and I'll do it mine. I do it my way for my clients and all of their built loads in quality barrels and actions shoot sub moa at 250 consistently... and I load a lot of rounds for my clients and myself and the expander balls stay in the die boxes. All the chambers we use are tight. Our PT&G reamers never get reground, they get tossed.
Far as talking to John, when I need a custom bushing die I send him 4 fired cases or a reamer print. Never had a discussion with him, no need.
I tossed in some ants, nothing more. What works for me, may not work for you and I claim no warranty concerning any aspect...just like I never list any load data on any website.
Agreed it's what works for the person doing the loading....FL sizing just keeps things more consistent for the type of shooting I do.
Just curious...how many chambers do you cut with a reamer before you toss it?
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Neck turning is done (in my world) to make the wall thickness uniform. This helps the bullet launch straight. It may reduce your neck tension by a small amount, but it will also make that more uniform, assuming that the temper is uniform. Only when I've massively sized some parent case down to make a wildcat am I turning to reduce diameter.
As for using an expander, I'm with LongRange. If you use one at all, that's 90% of what sets the sized ID of the neck, and hence the neck tension. Only alternative is to use bushing dies, which I guess is what SidecarFlip is advocating, but he ought to have said so. If not, IMHO he's getting MOA groups shooting off his keyboard.
I guess id be asking Texas Solo if he has a factory chamber in his gun.
If so, id also be asking if he runs high test gas in his Chevy pickup. lol
I'm with Long Range I have removed material from the ball, I have opened up the neck sizing area of the die. If the brass is properly annealed the final size of the case neck bore is determined by the expander ball. Too much sizing at the neck and you get bullet run out as an added bonus.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
I will even take this a step further since it's about neck turning.... for you guys that think neck turning for a factory chamber is a waste of time your wrong...a 50% clean up of necks will help to improve high ESs,bullet run out,neck tension consistency and seating consistency all of which can and will effect accuracy.
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Another reason why I prefer to use the expander...most if not all inconsistencies are pushed back to the outside of the neck and the ID is as straight and round as it can be.
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Depends entirely on how it's cutting and if it starts to chatter at all, it's in the scrap bin. Always synthetic flood coolant. I like Master Chemical full soluble synthetic coolant with boundary lubrication myself.
I see the bullet runout has also appeared. Never been an issue with me at all. I get very consistent 0.002 or less TIR using an RCBS competition micrometer seater and custom machined seater plugs. Most loads are dead nutz. It's SOP for me to sequentially seat a pill and rotate the case through at least a complete turn while seating.
IMO, bullet runout is the leading cause of inaccuracy at extended range. When the pill enters the lands at a deviation from parallel to the bore centerline, , it also travels down the rifling and leaves the muzzle the same way and long ogive pills need to fly true or they yaw. That is especially true with Berger VLD's and I load them about 95% if the time. The bihher the pill and the higher the velocity the more pronounced the yaw is.
You guys keep using your expanders and I'll keep mine in the die box, alonf with the decap stem.
No. I'm having a new chamber cut as we speak. Speedy Gonzalez is cutting a new .223 F/TR chamber in my Shilen S8 barrel. .223 with longer throat for 80gr.
And, regular Shell is all my truck gets :)
[COLOR=#ff0000]Hello to all you nice folks at NSA :)[/COLOR]
Thanks!And, regular Shell is all my truck gets :)
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
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