Zilla, Take a feeler gauge set with you to the range. If the bolt sticks, start with a .010" between the rear baffle and the face of the action to see if the bolt will open fully and extract the case. Go up in .005" increments until it opens.
In this video the guy places the feeler gauge in the wrong location but it is an example of how to do it. the feeler gauge should go on the other side of the baffle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-1ddHYW6wA
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
you can also surface your shellholder measure the thickness with caliper or mic use a flat surface granite plate or glass, psa sandpaper 320 grit hold shellholder flat and start sanding. go slow because you can take .015 off quick but then you can adjust die to spec. That's how I do it to go deeper for bumping shoulders and you can shim under the case in the shellholder on ram if you only need a smidge
Always keep your chamber clean and spotless if possible and keep your cases clean so they will grip the chamber walls after primer ignition. greae your cam at the back of the bolt also this helps with lift also and your lugs
I kinda figured it would or at least for the time being. As the parts wear in it may or may not happen again but we'll cross that bridge when or if we come to it.Originally Posted by zilla
Bill
Each morning eat a live green toad, it will be the worst thing you'll have face all day.
That's my problem with purely primary extraction as the base issue. It comes and goes.
Other factors at play that look to be the base issue, seems to wide spread to be as simple as the cam.
Comment read at one times says current Savage but the used I got was at least 6 years old and SN range looks to be even older and it did it.
Primary extraction is there because cases don't always release from the chamber. If in the event you stick a case and you do not have primary extraction you put a rod in the bore and hammer it out. All things considered primary extraction trumps rod and hammer.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
We seem to be talking at ends here.
Yes there is the extraction cam system, aka Primary extraction. there is no disagreement about that or what it does.
The $64 question is what causes the random sticky extraction issues?
Obviously the idea behind the gauge is to give it more length to the extraction, may even work
Is that the answer or is there a separate sticky case issue involved.
I can see a run of it, but same issue across two guns no fewer than 10 and more like 15 years apart as well as recurrent with others?
I don't think its the cam or its action, I think there is another aspect (or more than one) to it that stops the extraction from occurring.
If another aspect gets involved and the amount of force it has is not enough, you can make your lever longer, that does not explain the problem it may overcome it.
I just wanna shoot gophers...
In the mean time I am waiting for it to occur once again. This time I have a good idea what to look for..
To explain why it happens and why this one does and that one doesn't. It is all to do with stacked tolerances. When all the stacking is headed towards a problem then just a little more (sticky brass) problem and bang you can't get the brass out. If it is stacked the other way it pretty much means short of blowing the gun up it will extract all the time. Most fall somewhere in between. Bolt body has a tolerance, bolt handle has one, rear baffle has one and action has a tolerance, and don't forget the bolt and cross pin. Put all that together in the negative and you have an issue and you may not have to have all bad just some at the max or maybe something got past the checks. You are dealing in thousandths of an inch here. Not something you can just look at and say that looks to small.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
I suspect Savage like every other manufacturer runs their chamber reamers to the end before discarding them.
Rough Chamber: Certainly a possibility. I don't see brass marks so am tentatively discounting it for my guns, hope to get a cheap scope and get a good look.
That does not mean its not a factor in others. I continue to think this has several aspects to it, not all of which apply to any given problem.
As for the following, while that can be a factor in precision fit, the cam action does not fall into that category IMNSHO
I don't have my gauges, but the at full closed bolt between the baffle and either side (frame or bolt) is around .050 to .060. The cam action itself is at least another .060 and maybe as much as .070.
That clearly is not thousandths, and it would not be a marginal issue for cam operation. You want plenty (though you don't want to rip the head off the case)
I have seen the stacked tolerance issue in the mfg process of cylinder sleeves and pistons, in that case the mfg elected to match up the looser sleeves with the large pistons and the spec pistons with the spec sleeves. One way to do it but certainly confused a very experienced mechanic as well as myself as a new to diesels mechanic (he did figure it out, we did have to dismantle what we had done to that point).
This by comparisons is not a fine tolerance aspect. Bolt fit yes, all the rest with the locking lugs engagement yes, but extraction is a pretty robust and rough business.
That is always a distinct possibility on any production firearm. Only one way to ascertain that however and that is with a borescope.
I had an interesting experience with a vintage Smith and Wesson imported Husquvarna small action Mauser I bought in unfired condition at an estate sale a while back, it would chamber a SAMMI resized round but would extract hard, not every time, just once in a while and that wasn't even firing it, just loading one in battery. Interestingly. there was never a mark on any case that hung...
I was puzzled so I took a 'look see' inside the chamber, paying close attention to the walls and especially the shoulder datum area. What I saw was a tooling mark where many years ago, the gunsmith who reamed the barrel either stopped the lathe before extracting the reamer or turned the coolant off prematurely and it left a burr in the datum area. It took some time to find and was even harder to remove because I wasn't able to use one of my existing reamers to 'touch up' the imperfection. I had to work the burr out with lapping compound and hardwood dowel rods turned to the approximate shoulder taper. Took some time but I got rid of the burr and the extraction issue.
I own a Gradient Lens Hawkeye as well as a cheap HF digital inspection camera and I actually like the HF camera better. It won't fit everywhere the Gradient will but I don't have to worry about buggering up a 700 buck scope either.
I read the review on here about the Lyman unit and while it's a nice utility scope, it's still 4 times as much as the HF scope is.
Not withstanding. my most frequent use of a cheapo scope is visually checking my cleaning regimen, especially breaking in a new tube, where building copper and timely removal of it is imperative. I've explored the mysteries of various 'elixr's' for copper removal and their claims and actual real time performance and how they impact shot placement, especially that first 'flyer'.
....and...I've explored the mysteries of various 'elixr's' for copper removal and their claims and actual real time performance and how they impact shot placement, especially that first 'flyer'.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
SidecarFlip: Great information, no to mention great patience to work the burr down. Phew.
I too am very interested in your results. Currently using Bore Tech Eliminator and Carbon Killer 2000, they work better than previous but don't have the tool to look down the tube so only going by what's coming out and how well they clean up.
Your right but when you only need 10-15 thousandths to have enough primary extraction then stacking 3 or 4 thousandths on each part adds up.
Using your own example if your sleeve is .003 to large and the cylinder is bored .003 small you are now .006 out of spec. Just simple math.
In a perfect world the brass would spring back and never stick to the chamber walls but the world ain't perfect so one needs enough primary extraction to overcome sticky brass and/or a dirty chamber. Keeping the chamber clean will help but unless you are cleaning the chamber after every shot you only have one shot with a clean chamber.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
Something is not adding up, we aren't dealing with with .003, if the .015 is accurate then the .060 (or better) I am getting as above and beyond the baffle gap is more than enough.
I do fully get the not perfect world and a good force needed.
You are forcing me to take my feeler gauges home, fine, I will measure that free closed gap, then take the handle off an measure the cam distance and see how much the extraction cam distance is. I hope everyone is happy now.
.035 for primary extraction
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
All I know is that after swapping handles I haven't had the problem
The cheap (50 buck) Harbor Freight inspection camera will serve you well, I use one all the time. It's not a Hawkeye (Gradient Lens), but it's not 700 bucks either. One problem I encounter with BTE is a false copper reading even using a Dewey CF rod because the end of the rod is brass so I threaded an aluminum rod for the final pas of a patch puller, that eliminates any false reading. I've always used No. 9 for powder removal and the wife bought me a quart for Christmas last so that is what I use.
I had a customer give me a bottle of Sweets and I tried it one time and that was enough. It smells vile and while it does remove copper, it's had to get by the smell. BTE is odorless.
Be careful with BTE and ALWAYS use a bore guide. BTE will do bad things to trigger groups if it gets in there and is left in there. A good fitting bore guide is a necessity.
BTE sells nylon bore brushes (you have to use a nylon brush with BTE) for a price but you can buy the Tipton nylon ones a lot cheaper. Hard to find but I've found them on Amazon. I uses nothing but plastic jags and patch pullers.
If the rifle (with the burr) was an ordinary cookie cutter rifle, I would have traded it off. It isn't. S&W imported less than 1500 into this country in the 60's and the switched to a lesser quality Howa made design and the rifle is pristine and very collectable, plus it shoots very well as in MOA at 200 yards, not bad for a rifle that is 50 + years old. Chuck Hawks sure likes them....
I have some pictures of it but I have no idea how to post pictures on this forum....
Thank you, have to digest.
Have you tried or compared the Carbon Killer and Bore Tech to the BTE?
Orange smell with the Carbon Killer or none with them. Wife was having an issue with Hoppes smell and Hoppes was not as effective as I wanted for these guns.
I am one of those people that if there is glue tis everyone. Both the CK and BT are not attacking anything so for me that's good.
Mine went back and forth and lately none so a head scratcher though again cleaning the bore consistently.
Let us know if it comes back.
thank you, I thought I might get a response before I did something drastic!
That's a pretty good movement. What an odd phenomena and erratic as well.
Are you using a chamber guide when cleaning? My thought was perhaps some cleaning chemicals are remaining in the chamber and are causing the random stickiness.
+1 on the camera BTW. I have a Snap-0n digital borescope camera. Only about a hundred bucks on Ebay, used. WELL worth the money to be able to look into the chamber and throat. Also look into muzzle end and see copper build up quite clearly, or to verify your chemicals are removing the copper.
There are other fairly cheap 5mm endoscope cameras that will plug into your laptop with a usb port. I think I paid $18.00 for one that will fit down the bore of my 223. Got it on Ebay. Came with 15 ft of waterproof cable. Great for locating Crappie and catfish too.
Zilla a couple of things that ive learned is to after resizing the brass is to always check it by using a headspace gauge. Also don't use mixed brands of brass
I am using all Winchester brass.. Full length resize. Trim as needed. Not sure about the head space gauge, but I do have a Lyman cartridge checker that I use. I am anal about getting all the solvents out of the chamber.. Wipe Out is terribly sticky if not totally removed.. I just finished a very thorough cleaning and am ready to try again. Love to have a bore
scope but **** they are expensive.. If I do buy one it won't be the cheap one. I am looking at a hawk eye on clearance at Brownells now..
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