Help with barrel selection

[mjphawk]

RC20, thanks for your input regarding the standard cambering. I assume you have been happy with yours and don't have any issues loading long to get out to the lands while still staying under magazine length?

I did the bead blasting for the looks and will make it easier if I decide to cerakote later.

I did have the muzzle end threaded since I shoot almost exclusively with a suppressor (Specwar 762). So long as I don't lose muzzle velocity with the new barrel I will be fine at 1,000 yards and figure the shorter barrel will increase rigidity, not to mention making it fit in the safe nicer.

[RC20]

Got it on the safe, same issue, some are stored in a shop closet corner behind stuff. No kids, no visitors so can get away with it. Probably hard to move a target rifle with a heavy shiny barrel!

Finish per preference and you know what you are doing there.

You are solidly on track and just need the chamber questions answered.

Shilen does offer a higher grade match barrel, guaranteed dimensions, I did not go with it but it is a consideration while sorting out the chamber.
I do think a competition shooter might benefit but I am sure I never would.

[RC20]

Just to add a bit to the Shilen Barrel choice.

I looked over my first run results and I had three good groups out of it (my definition of that is 5/8 MOA or less), I thought I might find a node higher velocity so had moved up, but have not yet (not reached the top either)

As one of the things I have wanted is a good go to load to see if its me, scope, gun or ? I went back and repeated the load and COAL that got it.

What I got was one 3/8 group with 6 shots ignoring a flyer and one groups half inch same thing (if I have a wild 5th shot in a good 4 shot group I will shoot a 6th, if its wild again then I suspect the load, if it goes in at or under the 4 shot group size, I assume it is was a reload flaw or me, so just my take on it.

A wild shot can be any one of them, just one that does not seem to be the group norm and the shot felt good.


Last one was a group that 3 shots went into exactly the same hole. Not an iota you could see on the target to one side (usually there is a shade of that). The other two were off and that opened it up to 5/8 though both were equally off the center and I think that's valid.

Keep in mind while it a Bull barrel, its in a standard Boyds thumbhole stock, the re-loading while done with care is not super spec at all, the cases are RP, not weighed, bullets not weighted, necks are not turned, I don't know what the run out is. Scope is a 13 power hunting scope, something between a thick and thin hair type. Thinner than my Redfield 4-12 Revolution, not as thin as the Leupold Rimfire scope. Pretty much a good hunting setup other than the Bull barrel.

Also some issues with switch between a hunting Acu trigger that is fairly stiff on a new chassis I am playing with the the Varmint Acu Trigger. It was taking me some shots to adjust to the much lighter let off on the Varmint acu. Not an excuse just a reality.

Off a standard front bag with rear bag support and as free recoil as I can get. Also 108 yes so the MOA is actually a smidge less that the 3/8, 1/2 and 5/8. Pretty well matches the two just 5 shot groups that were half (and one that had 4 sub 1/2). Again my take is that if it does 4 tight, then a 5th straying is more me or the load not the gun.

Other loads higher charge, each time I went back to the original load that looked good, it was a solid 4 shot (adding in the 6ht) or a solid 5.

When I start competing witih my brother the offer will be, out of a 5 shot group if you have one abnormally wild, you can shoot a 6th. If it goes wider still, then you take the 6 shot group as the size. If it goes inside the good 4, then you get that result.

My take is that its a very good barrel, probably capable of 1/4 groups with better shooter, ammunition, optics and stock setup.

[Robinhood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSoTBceFkww
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9ULBtsnkR0

[SidecarFlip]

After much searching of the inter-webs for information, I have decided to create a post of my own to help make a new barrel decision. I found a lot of information that was “close” but few that seemed to relate to my application (budget long-range on a Savage action).

I have a Savage 110 FCP HS Precision in 308 WIN with a Vortex PST 6-24x50. I handload and have worked up loads that the gun seems to like and produce SD’s generally in the single digits. I’m looking to upgrade my barrel in hopes of getting a little more consistency out of my groupings which are currently running right around 1 MOA or slightly over with occasional "fliers" (I shoot only 5-shot groups and record every shot no matter what. I'm not going to deny that some of the inconsistency may be me but I do think I am a reasonably good shot. I shoot mostly at 100 yards and enjoy shooting tight groups, but the primary purpose for this gun is to shoot at 1,000 yards which I do when I can get to a range that lets me get out that far with a reasonable amount of success (I know a 308 WIN is not the best 1,000 yard gun).

Eventually I will be buying a custom rig in 6mm or 6.5mm from a top name like GA Precision, etc. so am just looking for a drop in 308 WIN barrel at this time to buy more time to save up.

First question is if people think that a new barrel will serve me well?

If so, I was hoping to get some input from the folks here. Few considerations:

• Brand: I have been looking at Criterion, Shilen, X-Calibur, Benchmark, Krieger, and Bartlein. I don’t mind spending money on a good setup but am not sure I will see the benefit of the Krieger or Bartlein off of a factory action (not 100% sure I can even get a drop in from either of these manufacturers). No doubt all make great barrels but I’m gun-shy of Criterion from some reviews I have read and haven’t found much on X-Calibur or Shilen for the long range game.
• Length: I current have a 24” barrel and I can push 175 SMKs up to just under 2,750 fps which just gets me to 1,000 yards super-sonic where I shoot. I also use a suppressor which adds another 9” to the overall length. I like the 24” size but am unsure if I am likely to be able to get the same velocities out of a match barrel. If I’m at risk of falling to trans-sonic at the 24” length then I would likely move up to 26”.
• Twist: I currently have a 1:10. After reading Applied Ballistics Modern Advancements in Long-Range shooting I considered moving to something a little slower since I use “average” quality bullets (175gr SMK / 178gr A-Max) to keep my groupings tight; however, I don’t think it will properly stabilize a 185gr Berger Hybrid Match to the required 1.5 factor if I ever decided to use premium bullets. A 1:11 would just get me to 1.5 provided I could push them at least 2,700 fps (might need a 26" barrel?)
• Contour: The gun is shot almost exclusively off a bench or bipod so weight isn’t a big issue (gun 9lbs, suppressor 24oz, scope 24 oz). Was thinking about stepping up to a slightly heavier contour to add rigidity. Currently the muzzle diameter is 0.840” at 24”. It does not appear that Shilen or Criterion offer anything between my contour and a bull barrel in a drop-in so going heavier might not be an option if I went with those manufacturers.
• Material: If there is no difference in performance then I would choose to stay with blued chrome-molly. Many things I read say the level of precision is consistent but break-in and cleaning may be a bit more difficult for a chrome molly versus a stainless steel barrel

Would love to hear any input or criticisms on anything I have written above (specifically on brand). I am not married to any particular idea so all input is welcomed.

I built a Lightweight hunter (308) with a Bartlien light contour and it's a tack driver (with proper jump of course). Forget 1000 yards with a hunting rifle. The pill will get there with about enough kinetic energy to kill a horsefly 100 yard prints are typically one ragged hole. 250's are sub-sub moa 1" groups consistently. Max clean kill range with 165 Bergers is about 500 yards. Stick weighs a light 6 pounds loaded with a 1" tube Vortex Diamondback SF optic in Talley one piece rings. Manners CF stock dressed in Kuiu camo from Pacific Hydro.

I use nothing but BTE and nylon brushes followed by a wipe with No.9 and I inspect every cleaning with a borescope. Lapua or Federal Match cases, Federal primers and a good powder charge.

[SidecarFlip]

I want to thank everyone here for the input. It was a really tough decision to make. I wanted to maximize performance while still getting a certain "look". Ultimately I decided on the following:

Shilen Stainless Select Match
- 308 WIN
- 24 inches
- Varmint contour
- 1:10 twist rate
- 11-degree crown
- Bead blasted finish
- Threaded barrel

I ordered the barrel from Northland Shooter's Supply and they were a pleasure to work with. I also ordered a recoil lug, barrel nut, and the tools needed to change to the barrel.

One item I did not know is that when ordering a custom barrel from Shilen they offer for no additional cost the option to send in a dummy round seated to your desired distance from the neck to the lands (freebore?).

Now I have a new question (not sure if this belongs in its own thread). What is the ideal seating depth for a bullet to be seated into a cartridge. I have heard before that you want to seat so that the bearing surface is at least one caliber into the neck. A 308 WIN has a neck length of 0.304". My primary bullet is a 175gr SMK which has a an overall length of 1.240 (0.165 boat-tail, 0.350 bearing surface, 0.710 ogive to meplat). What I would like to confirm is that the target depth is the depth which 1) the bearing surface should be seated into the neck and not 2) the overall length which should be seated into the neck.



It would make sense to me that it would be the bearing surface (second picture) that should be at least a caliber length into the neck as opposed to the first picture which would have only 0.170 inches of the bearing surface in contact with the neck. If the second picture is the correct answer then that would mean that it is actually impossible to properly seat a 175 SMK longer than SAMI specifications / magazine length. Am I missing something?

The wait begins (estimated 8-12 weeks)

Interesting and something I never take into consideration...at all. I seat for optimum accuracy according to jump and that almost always takes a Wyatt box to get to. So long as I have enough neck tension to retain the pill and keep the round intact in the belly and in the chamber, I'm happy. For my precision longer range sticks, everyone has it's own custom machined John Whidden bushing die and I make my own bushings in the shop to set neck tension the way I want it.

Your above synopsis has never entered into my loading regimen at all and never will.

[Robinhood]

Incontrovertable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaW_...eature=related

[RC20]

Interesting and something I never take into consideration...at all. I seat for optimum accuracy according to jump and that almost always takes a Wyatt box to get to. So long as I have enough neck tension to retain the pill and keep the round intact in the belly and in the chamber, I'm happy. For my precision longer range sticks, everyone has it's own custom machined John Whidden bushing die and I make my own bushings in the shop to set neck tension the way I want it.

Your above synopsis has never entered into my loading regimen at all and never will.

Very few are to the precision level listed, most of us clunk along as best we can.

[RC20]

Incontrovertable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaW_...eature=related

Cool

[SidecarFlip]

Very few are to the precision level listed, most of us clunk along as best we can.

If you are gonna spend big buck on a replacement tube, it stands to reason that you are looking for the best groupings and that only comes with careful prep and experience. I clunked along for many years as well, then I got acquainted with Brian Litz and Walt Berger and it changed my whole perspective on handloading. My suggestion to anyone pursuing repeatable down range accuracy at any distance, buy a copy of the Berger reloading manual and pay special attention on the chapters devoted to jumping, neck tension and the impact of barrel harmonics.

You can apply the Berger loading regimen to any pill from any maker. No need to load Bergers. I load Bergers, Sierra, Swift and Hornady pills and use the Berger jump philosophy on all of them with great success.

Why 'clunk' along when there is published and accepted practices out there and all you have to do is read it and apply it.

Why I never allude to propellant loads on any forum. I'm always over and sometimes way over SAMMI spec but it's never an issue adhering to the Berger loading regimen. For example I just developed a load for a 300 WM (Kreiger barrel, 700 Remington clone action, Jewel trigger. MacMillan stocked and it chrono's at 3100 fps with a 185 Berger VLD Hunter with sub-sub moa accuracy at 250 yards and no case issues, no cratering of primers and no belt issues, just using Walt Berger's tried and true loading regimen, Whidden dies and the correct bushing and bump.

When I draw down on an animal at distance, any distance, I want a clean kill and that involves a loading regimen other than 'clunking along'.

Just where I'm at after 40 years or so playing with this stuff.

[foxx]

clunk, clunk, clunk

[FW Conch]

I be cluckin ;-))

[RC20]

Ditto. Getting to my goal of sub 5/8 MOA groups these days so I am happy with that.

Signed:

The Former Prudhoe Bay Chicken.

[RC20]

Interesting and something I never take into consideration...at all. I seat for optimum accuracy according to jump and that almost always takes a Wyatt box to get to. So long as I have enough neck tension to retain the pill and keep the round intact in the belly and in the chamber, I'm happy. For my precision longer range sticks, everyone has it's own custom machined John Whidden bushing die and I make my own bushings in the shop to set neck tension the way I want it.

Your above synopsis has never entered into my loading regimen at all and never will.

All kidding aside I will look at it and see if it works for me and I do appreciate the information.