winchester brass?

[swamphonkey]

I was cleaning pockets and flashholes on a box of mix 7mm08 brass last night. And every Winchester stamped case had a donut at the shoulder and neck. Now this brass has to be from a client that used my range because I never have used win brass in the little 7. So I just threw it out there was only 11 of them. Is winchester brass known for this? Because none of my mix brass has it except the winchester and I have only loaded that box one time. So it's not shot out.

[bigedp51]

What type of die did you size the cases with, full length, neck sizing or bushing type?

Donuts are caused by neck turning and the thicker part of the neck/shoulder juncture flowing forward.

[LongRange]

doughnuts are caused from neck turning?

ive turned a few thousand necks and have never had a doughnut in a case ive turned...if your getting doughnuts on outside turned cases its because the case was not cut deep enough into the neck shoulder junction.

[swamphonkey]

I never sized them I trashed them. I was just curious as to this being a problem with winchester brass. I remember the client that shot them and called him and asked him why his brass looked that way and he doesn't reload he said it was factory winchester I must have picked them up to use and threw them in my 708 mix brass box. I have 3-7mm08s and pick up every one I find. But I've never seen it from my brass. At least not that pronounced.

[bigedp51]

Brass flows upward into the case neck when fired and why it needs to be trimmed, and the only people who complain about donuts are the ones who neck turn.

Also the angle of the cutter has a big effect and should match the shoulder angle of the case, and many do not.

My point being with the OP is he shouldn't have any donuts if he is not turning his case necks.

Neck Turning Basics
by German A. Salazar
http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...urning-basics/

You’ll remember that I said earlier that the cases all had to be trimmed to a uniform length, here’s why. The K&M and most tools, use the case mouth as the stop point for the cutter — if the cases aren’t trimmed to the same length, the depth of the cut will vary accordingly. Since we want to have the cutter just bite into the shoulder, we need to have very uniform case lengths to keep from undercutting or overcutting at this critical point. Visually, you should see a small shiny ring form right at the neck/shoulder junction, just cutting into the shoulder. This is a judgment call because you really can’t measure it, but keep it small. The purpose of cutting into the shoulder is to ensure that you got 100% of the neck which will prevent donuts from forming at the inside base of the neck. If there’s a small, unturned ring at the base of the neck, when you fire the brass for the first time, the 55,000 psi of chamber pressure blows the neck out to the chamber wall and the neck will no longer have that bulge on the outside, it will now be on the inside and there’s your donut which will make bullet seating difficult and will wreck our attempt to get uniform neck tension. On the other hand, if you cut too far into the shoulder, you can weaken the neck/shoulder junction and potentially blow the necks off the cases. I saw a nice example of this recently; I should have asked for one of the neckless cases.

Neck-Turning Tool Cutting Tips
http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...-cutting-tips/

Unfortunately, as you work the cutter down the neck, a shallow angled-cutter tip such as this will remove brass fairly far down. You only want to extend the cut about 1/32 of an inch past the neck-shoulder junction. This is enough to eliminate brass build-up at the base of the neck that can cause doughnuts to form.

The answer here is simply to use a cutter tip with a wider angle — 30 to 40 degrees. The cutter for the K&M neck-turning tool (above) has a shorter bevel that better matches a 30° shoulder. There is also a 40° tip available. WalkerTexasRanger reports: “I went to a 40-degree cutter head just to address this same issue, and I have been much happier with the results.

[wbm]

My point being with the OP is he shouldn't have any donuts if he is not turning his case necks.

Don't know about anyone else but the only time I ever had donuts was when I was neck turning.

[LongRange]

Well I've turned several thousand and have never had a doughnut in a turned case....we all know the ALL brass come thick in the neck shoulder junction so if sizing without an expander ball is the quickest way to form doughnuts.

And FYI I've been using the k&m tool since day one...and the only time I've gotten doughnuts was when using a bushing without an expander.

[earl39]

Maybe y'all need to learn to read. OP said he picked it up. It was other people's brass. He hasn't sized anything.

[LongRange]

I can read...it may be just barely but I get by...I responded to eds comment about neck turning causing doughnuts.

But your right...sorry for jackin your thread swamp.


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[bigedp51]

And if you go to Benchrest Central or AccurateShooter you will see competitive shooters discussing donuts all the time, meaning it can happen to anyone.

And swamphonkey is telling us some of his range pickup brass has donuts and this is "WHY" I asked what type die he is using.

And if he didn't size this brass how did he know the brass had donuts, meaning how did he check theses cases for donuts.


Let's talk about the "dreaded donut"
http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...d-donut-69613/

[swamphonkey]

No big jig. I just never seen brass that bad. Especially knowing he doesn't reload. And I picked them up from my personal range no one but myself or client's shoot at my place and I only have had that one guy shoot a 7o8 that I can remember so it must have been a fluke with that batch of brass. It is like a bulging ring right at the shoulder and neck and it's very pronounced. I just chunked it I don't care to have a mishap over 11 pieces of brass. I reload but I don't turn necks. I only neck size 243 brass for one rifle all my others I just full size them. And I've not seen anything close to that on my loads. I have to trim necks after a few reloads but not too often. But then again I load hunting loads and if they are under a inch at 150 it's going in the choot'em bag. I just got a crono a couple years ago just because I had to know what speed I was getting. Talk about a disappointing day when all my loads were clocked ! Lol I really revamped my loading since then.

[LongRange]

I don't need to go to BRC,AS or LRHing to read about ppls theory's on doughnuts what causes them or how to remove them.

You say firing causes doughnuts? Or could it be when sizing cases all the brass being pushed into the neck shoulder junction? And then no expander being used making the problem worse?

A new piece of brass is thicker at the center...even thicker at the neck shoulder junction than it is at the mouth and all you need is a set of calipers to measure that.



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[bigedp51]

I didn't say "firing causes doughnuts" I said neck turning causes the majority of donuts because of upward brass flow.

And the vast majority of people who neck turn their brass are using bushing dies without the expander. And these are the shooters who have the most problems with donuts.

The best cure for donuts is to full length resize, expand the neck and neck turn again.

I prefer using Forster full length dies with their floating expander even when neck turning.

"BUT" the OP still does not know why or what caused these Winchester cases to have donuts.

[LongRange]

I agree with everything you just posted except the part about upward flow...I agree that's a small part but the bigger part is sizing and pushing the brass back into the neck shoulder junction.

I've also found if the cut into the shoulder is a little deeper you will never get doughnuts...the trick is finding that sweet spot...I've blown a few necks off finding it.

As for swamps doughnuts I think it was thick brass in the neck/shoulder more than doughnuts...I have personally never seen a 1x fired case with a doughnut...I have seen several 1x fired and sized cases with doughnuts starting.


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[bigedp51]

I've also found if the cut into the shoulder is a little deeper you will never get doughnuts...the trick is finding that sweet spot...I've blown a few necks off finding it.

And when the beveled end of the cutter is a closer match to your actual case shoulder angle you have less problems with neck turning and donuts.

This is because you are not cutting a "step" into the case shoulder for the donut to form.

Below the angle of the cutter is a close match to the actual case shoulder angle making a smoother transition at the shoulder junction.



Neck-Turning Tool Cutting Tips
http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...-cutting-tips/

[LongRange]

as i said ive never had a doughnut in a turned neck....

6mm hornady cases with about a 40% clean up and a light cut into the shoulder...



same case after being fired and the step to the inside of the case...



this is 260 laupa brass that has been turned 75 to 100%...note the cut into the shoulder is much deeper...reason being the laupa(as you know)is much thicker than domestic brass..



im not saying im right and everyone else is wrong im just saying this is how i turn necks and ive never had a doughnut in any of them...my theory for what its worth...is that when the step is cut into the neck and then blown to the inside after firing gives the brass a place to flow to instead of just building back up in the neck/shoulder junction again after sizing and firing repeatedly.

[swamphonkey]

Long range that's some good looking work. I learned how to reload by books and learning as I go. I'm by no means a professional. But I can make a fair hunting round. My question is should I turn necks on my brass?? I've not had any problems closing bolts or anything and I usually toss my brass after 6 or 7 loads. Just because I don't really know if it's ok or not. If primer pocket are loose I trash it and thing that looks strange I trash it. But I see a lot of you guys that are light years ahead of me on reloading skills just modify brass. Like you making 308 out of -06 cases that's slick as owl crap. Keep posting little tricks like that If anyone else doesn't appreciate them Know I do. I've learned a lot on this site about builds and reloading there is some dang good riflemen on this site.

[LongRange]

i dont claim to be an expert on reloading or shooting but what i do know is from trial,error and actual field testing...a lot of ppl say turning necks for a standard chamber is a waste of time...i disagree...turning necks and annealing are two parts of case prep that have the biggest effect on accuracy.

as far as you turning necks...thats up to you,what you consider accurate and how accurate you need to be....do you need to? NO...will it help accuracy and consistency? if you add annealing in Yes...it all depends how far you want to chase accuracy...me personally id really like to get away from all case prep but at the same time i want the most accurate ammo i can get so case prep is just a part of loading.