Home gunsmithing

**foxx** · 08-01-2016, 09:52 PM

duplicate post, and out of intended context as written.

**Apache** · 08-01-2016, 09:54 PM

Well......right now it seems that way.

This is what I've gleaned so far and my opinion only.....

You have to remember this is all done via EO for now. IF the Republican gets in, he has promised to repeal all of the EO's....if so...this will all go away. IF the Dems take the presidency, it's going to get worse, not better. I'm waiting to make my final decision after the elections. But I'm also putting somethings into motion JUST IN CASE the Republican doesn't get in.

At this point, they also have no real reinforcement mechanism in place from everything I've read. What little they do have in place is completely overwhelmed right now. It would be like putting a stop sign up and have no cops to enforce it. Now one thing to consider though....this thing has some REAL teeth in it for penalties if they choose to make an example out of someone.

So don't make a decision lightly.

This will be challenged in court at some point also......but it's a toss up on the out come. Most of that will depend on this election.

This is probably THE MOST important election in our lifetime......or longer.

So far, this is my pattern of thinking. I'm still researching this though.

**J.Baker** · 08-01-2016, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by tufrthnails

Which EO is this specifically I was trying to find the actual order to read the order. https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...gnment-certain

There is no Executive Order. This is simply the DOS changing their definition of what is and is not considered "manufacturing" as it applies to DDTC and ITAR.

Also, it's not "if" this becomes law, it already is the law and has been for decades. The only thing that's changed are what specific acts or services the DOS considers to be manufacturing that would require the registration under DDTC.

**foxx** · 08-01-2016, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by The Old Coach

Does that not suggest that home gunsmithing for one's own collection would be exempt, since the home hobby gunsmith is not soliciting or receiving any work from the public?

Yes, Coach, I believe you are correct.

However, if his suppliers are run-off, the hobbiest will be hard-put to find parts for his projects.

**Apache** · 08-01-2016, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by MrFurious

There is no Executive Order. This is simply the DOS changing their definition of what is and is not considered "manufacturing" as it applies to DDTC and ITAR.

Also, it's not "if" this becomes law, it already is the law and has been for decades. The only thing that's changed are what specific acts or services the DOS considers to be manufacturing that would require the registration under DDTC.

Jim...has it been around that long!!!! WOW! I've heard that it was slipped in ambiguously about 5 years ago. ITAR was suppose to regulate international arms trade with other countries......as I understand it, this is their attempt to regulate arms within our own nation now to a much greater degree than before.

**foxx** · 08-01-2016, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by MrFurious

There is no Executive Order. This is simply the DOS changing their definition of what is and is not considered "manufacturing" as it applies to DDTC and ITAR.

Also, it's not "if" this becomes law, it already is the law and has been for decades. The only thing that's changed are what specific acts or services the DOS considers to be manufacturing that would require the registration under DDTC.

I agree. I think that is the whole deal here. The current administration has created a new culture that seeks more power and is eager to interpret their roles in a way that justifies or enables whatever agenda they seek. In this case, the State Department is acting the same way the president does when he issues Executive Orders so as to make policy without enacting laws. In this case, they want to destroy the gun industry.

**foxx** · 08-01-2016, 10:12 PM

I may begoing out on a limb here, but I believe the problem is rooted in the AR-15 debacle. Liberals want them outlawed. They can't do that right now, but they can make them more difficult for common citizens to obtain. They can make them more expensive, for example. Currently, there are a lot of companies making parts and kits that drive down the cost of building them. What might currently cost a guy $500-600 to build himself or with the help of a gunsmith would, if this action is carried out successfully, might end up costing $1,000 if the only companies making them are Ruger, Remington, Colt, Winchester, etc. THey can afford the fees, but the small companies and gunsmiths can't. In the end, the cost of these "Assault Rifles" that are threatening the Americans or American government because they are so easily produced and so affordable will go up and be less popular.

AR's are the "Saturday Night Special" of the 1970's and 80's and liberals are afraid of them because of their capabilities.

**WV1951** · 08-01-2016, 10:15 PM

What has gotten lost in the shuffle and our own interest is that these regs and orders are being interpreted, handed down, revised, changed, etc. for many industries. The gun lobby has seen as much pressure applied as anybody, but we have to realize that the ideology of this current administration has had 7 1/2 years to permeate, fill voids, and take over the thought process in the huge Washington bureaucracy. This large Washington bureaucracy wields tremendous power that is usually runs under the radar. This is one of many possible roadblocks that will come up the next few years. It takes years to "clean" house of a certain ideology.

**Apache** · 08-01-2016, 10:19 PM

Norm....Jim....

I'm just asking your opinions based on what you've learned......

Do you think the elections will change these "definitions" of what manufacturing is? Or is this something that is going to be permanent?

**foxx** · 08-01-2016, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by WV1951

What has gotten lost in the shuffle and our own interest is that these regs and orders are being interpreted, handed down, revised, changed, etc. for many industries. The gun lobby has seen as much pressure applied as anybody, but we have to realize that the ideology of this current administration has had 7 1/2 years to permeate, fill voids, and take over the thought process in the huge Washington bureaucracy. This large Washington bureaucracy wields tremendous power that is usually runs under the radar. This is one of many possible roadblocks that will come up the next few years. It takes years to "clean" house of a certain ideology.

EXACTLY, that was my point with my post #28 and the Department of Labor getting involved in your IRA's and your relationship with your financial consultant. Who would have thought the Depart of Labor would see it fitting to even go there?

**foxx** · 08-01-2016, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Apache

Norm....Jim....

I'm just asking your opinions based on what you've learned......

Do you think the elections will change these "definitions" of what manufacturing is? Or is this something that is going to be permanent?

The "culture" I speek of is hard to change. Once a department of the government feels empowered to and responsible for certain duties or whatever, it is hard to draw them back. It's human nature.

**Apache** · 08-01-2016, 10:24 PM

That's what I'm afraid of. It's a lot harder to undo a law than to pass one.

**foxx** · 08-01-2016, 10:45 PM

Also, I mentioned earlier that I spoke with a rep from the State Department today (or yesterday????). We spoke for over an hour, and he told me he was not at liberty to discuss it any further, but there are MORE regulations coming. MORE restrictions based upon this department's "stretch" of their interpretation of their own authority. What we have seen thus far is only the tip of the ice berg. He added, though, that they are relying on US and our input to help them figure out what is "reasonable and doable".

For example, he was almost suggesting that it is not their intention to stop you from building barrels for bolt action sporting rifles, (or maybe me from building and selling 450BM's to deer hunters in southern Michigan), but, at the same time, they don't necessarily understand the ramifications or the unintended consequences of their actions. As I see it, that means there are good, reasonable people making policy within the State Department that may be on our side, but there is also those who do not want to protect our niche.

**Apache** · 08-01-2016, 10:52 PM

In your OPINION........if the Republicans win the presidency, will this be reversed?

**foxx** · 08-01-2016, 11:08 PM

Better chance than if the Dems win. There are enough Dems that want to shut us all down...

If I read this guy correctly, the State Department has no issue with you building Savage Pre-fits ( or me building Savage 450BM's), but they don't know how to allow one (us) and not the other (ar-15's). They probably don't want you to build ar-15 barrels, though.

I encourage you to make your case with them.

**Apache** · 08-01-2016, 11:17 PM

The problem is I build for the AR's also.......nor do I think it's right for them to try and regulate AR's out of the reach of anyone that can legally own one.

I may contact them, but I don't like letting the Feds know anymore than I have too. I just don't trust our government anymore....no matter who is in power.

**Robinhood** · 08-01-2016, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Apache

I just don't trust our government anymore....no matter who is in power.

That almost sounds like you live under tyranny

**foxx** · 08-01-2016, 11:32 PM

I understand, Jim. and I agree.

We gotta fight this under principal for all within the industry. However, we also gotta make our case with those in power where we think we might win. I am with you, Jim. 100%. Believe me, it was not easy for me to write and ask for clarification as to whether what I wanted to do fell under their authority or not. I hated to divulge anything to them. However, I did not think I had a choice, once I knew the regs and their intentions and interpretations.

**foxx** · 08-01-2016, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Robinhood

That almost sounds like you live under tyranny

I think we do, Robin. I really do. It's just that a lot of people have yet to feel it.

To quote the Doobie Brothers: "I ain't blind and I don't like what I think I see..."

**DrThunder88** · 08-02-2016, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Apache

In your OPINION........if the Republicans win the presidency, will this be reversed?

With the exception of the 94 AWB being allowed to expire, has there ever been a reversal of federal gun control legislation or executive order? On the other hand, I'm sure we can think of increases in gun control under a Republican-controlled White House and Congress.

**Robinhood** · 08-02-2016, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by foxx

To quote the Doobie Brothers: "I ain't blind and I don't like what I think I see..."

The other day I heard Buffalo Springfield and I thought about the current assault on our rights. Theres a man with a gun over there, telling me I got to beware.....

**J.Baker** · 08-02-2016, 08:20 AM

This might prove useful to you guys

http://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/obam...38ddf-20569821

**scope eye** · 08-02-2016, 08:26 AM

I am just curious where does that $2250.00 number come from, it's just odd.

Dean

**Texas10** · 08-02-2016, 08:45 AM

I am a relative newbie on this site, and know that little of what I write commands any respect from you guys, but you might consider this from my years of owning a business built upon my reputation and skill.

Small businesses are rarely the target of new regulations, especially ITAR regs. With this reputed Executive Action, and now it has become clear is NOT an EA, we see bureaucrats trying to improve their regulatory reach with regard to a law that's been on the books for a long time.

That's a big SO WHAT? in my book. For now, you can just ignore it, and if the regulatory agency in charge thinks YOUR business falls under the scope of the law, they'l send you a letter stating such, which you can copy your to congressman if you find it'll adversely effect you business.

As far as the fee associated, it's pretty small, all things considered. IF you're operating a small business, less than $500k a year gross income, you can probably get the fee waived, or a least it is a tax deduction. It's really not a game changer unless you're a micro business, then your small fry as far as the Gov't is concerned.

My business fell under one of the most heavily regulated industries in America. Remember the 9/11 attacks in NY? I got a call two days later stating I had to give up my entire customer list, addresses, phone numbers, Credit cards, SSN's, everything.

I ignored it. And sure enough, cooler heads prevailed and within a couple of weeks, it all went away.

So don't get your knickers in a knot on this, and especially don't advance the idea of any kind of insurrection. That'll just give the loonies more ammo to use against us.

Regardless of who is in the Oval Office next year, we have a Republican lead House and Senate, and the NRA has a powerful lobbying force. The Senate may change a bit in the upcoming election, but I read nothing about a predicted wholesale change to Demo in both houses, Trumps big mouth notwithstanding.

So relax, chill out, have a beer, and stop watching FOX network, in fact you might just cut your cable as I did. Your blood pressure will drop dramatically, and you'll be a lot happier overall. I got a Roku stick on my TV and pick and choose what I watch. Couldn't be happier.