Home gunsmithing

[Dennis]

Has anyone heard of Obama issuing an executive order to stop all in home gunsmith work by unlicensed gunsmiths?

If you had, please pass that information along to me.

Dennis

[Dennis]

http://www.ammoland.com/2016/07/just...e-gun-control/

THIS IS IT, LET ME KNOW YOUR THOUGHT ON THIS AND HOW IF AFFECTS US.

DENNIS

[J.Baker]

This idea originally came about several years ago - I'm thinking it was after Obama couldn't get the new gun ban passed after Sandy Hook. Naturally it was heavily objected to at that time, and they didn't pursue it then because it would have been pushing the limit a little further than they thought they could get away with. Now that Obama's in his home stretch he clearly doesn't care and is willing to blatantly exceed his power as he knows any attempt by Congress to stop it or impeach him would be a waste of time since he only has a few months left in office.

Funny thing is I hadn't heard anything about it until this thread, and looking around there's been no mention of it on any of the major news networks, not even Fox News. Between the lead-in to the DNC and the terror attacks in Germany it just got lost in the shuffle with the media. The only stories I've seen are the initial statement by the NRA-ILA and a couple other's on firearms related sites that essentially reiterated and expanded upon the NRA's statement on the matter.

Will be interesting to see if Congress or the NRA file suit on this.

[tufrthnails]

This is the third forum I have seen this linked on today, but prior to that I hadn't seen anything on it either. I don't think it will put anyone out of business IF Hillary does not get elected. I have nothing to back this up, but I have a feeling that Trump might just walk into office IF he gets elected and repeal number by number all of Obama's EOs simply as an FU to Obama. If anything my hopes are he will tie up the .gov with enough work chasing actual bad guys that they have no ability to enforce anything.

[J.Baker]

Here's the thing to consider:

Having put this into effect, assuming it took effect immediately, 99.9% of the gunsmiths in the country are now operating in violation and could face stiff penalties. Basically anything that requires any kind of machining (threading a muzzle, drilling and tapping, etc) or will improve accuracy is now deemed manufacturing and requires them to pay the $2,250 extortion fee to the Dept. of State for the DDTC permit. Stock making is specifically stated as falling under this new interpretation, so Boyds and everyone else is going to have to comply. Presumably all the barrel makers will need to comply as well. Even something as simple as installing the 38 Spl. bolt lift mod would necessitate getting the permit if you shorten the BAS.

The info below is from the following Dept. of State document:
http://pmddtc.state.gov/compliance/A...Publish%29.pdf

1. Registration not Required – Not Manufacturing:

In response to questions from persons engaged in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration is not required because the following activities do not meet the ordinary, contemporary, common meaning of “manufacturing” that DDTC employs in implementing the ITAR and, therefore, do not constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes:

a) Occasional assembly of firearm parts and kits that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining;

b) Firearm repairs involving one-for-one drop-in replacement parts that do not require any cutting, drilling, or machining for installation;

c) Repairs involving replacement parts that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation;

d) Hydrographic paint or Cerakote application or bluing treatments for a firearm;

e) Attachment of accessories to a completed firearm without drilling, cutting, or machining — such as attaching a scope, sling, or light to existing mounts or hooks, or attaching a flash suppressor, sound suppressor, muzzle brake, or similar item to a pre-threaded muzzle;

f) Cosmetic additions and alterations (including engraving) that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation beyond its original capabilities;

g) Machining new dovetails or drilling and tapping new holes for the installation of sights which do not improve the accuracy or operation of the firearm beyond its original capabilities; and

h) Manual loading or reloading of ammunition of .50 caliber or smaller.

Activities limited to the domestic sale or resale of firearms, the occasional assembly of firearms without drilling, cutting, or machining, and/or specific gunsmithing activities that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or operations of the firearm beyond its original capabilities (as described above) are not manufacturing within the context of the ITAR. If you are not manufacturing, exporting, temporarily importing or brokering defense articles or services, you are not required to register with DDTC.

2. Registration Required – Manufacturing:

In response to questions from persons engaged in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration is required because the following activities meet the ordinary, contemporary, common meaning of “manufacturing” and, therefore, constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes:

a) Use of any special tooling or equipment upgrading in order to improve the capability of assembled or repaired firearms;

b) Modifications to a firearm that change round capacity;

c) The production of firearm parts (including, but not limited to, barrels, stocks, cylinders, breech mechanisms, triggers, silencers, or suppressors);

d) The systemized production of ammunition, including the automated loading or reloading of ammunition;

e) The machining or cutting of firearms, e.g., threading of muzzles or muzzle brake installation requiring machining, that results in an enhanced capability;
f) Rechambering firearms through machining, cutting, or drilling;

g) Chambering, cutting, or threading barrel blanks; and

h) Blueprinting firearms by machining the barrel.


3. Registration Required – Other than Manufacturing:

a) Assisting foreign persons in the design, development, and repair of firearms may constitute the export of a defense service (see 22 CFR § 120.9) and require ITAR registration with and authorization from DDTC; and

b) Exporting a firearm or any other item on the USML requires ITAR registration with and authorization from DDTC

As you can see, the interpretation is extremely vague and open-ended as to what is deemed manufacturing and what isn't.

For example: Since most rifles today don't come with open sights installed, installing a scope would dramatically improve the accuracy of the rifle and thus, under this interpretation, warrant such an act as requiring the DDTC permit - even though they say mounting a scope doesn't require said permit.

Also, what does "Occasionally" mean in terms of assembling of parts or kits? Once a week? Once a month? Once a year? Once in a lifetime?

[Robinhood]

What strikes me as odd is that most of these politicians are war mongers and the blood of hundred of thousands is on their hands but if their sweeping gun control laws will stop one death then it is a good deed.

[scope eye]

What strikes me as odd is that most of these politicians are war mongers and the blood of hundred of thousands is on their hands but if their sweeping gun control laws will stop one death then it is a good deed.

Hear Hear

Dean

[J.Baker]

I guess with 3a above we're going to have to start asking people what country they're from before we can offer any assistance or advice on how to repair or upgrade their rifle here.

[tufrthnails]

Who actually falls under ITAR and DDTC? I have never accepted a penny for the Gunfawkery I tinker with. Do you think the back yard guy falls under this jurisdiction? They way I read it is only businesses. Which might effect you MrFurious, but not a nonbusiness related member. If I tell someone in New zealand how to accurize a Savage and don't receive a penny then I don't think it would apply. I'm not a lawyer and above statement is just off the cuff thinking.

[tufrthnails]

Another reason I don't think it would put many out of business is typically I have found Mom and pop GS are quite a bit cheaper then big box smiths. So if a mom and pop does 100 orders that fall under this reg it will cost $22.50 more passed to the customer. Which may hurt sells a little, but like the local guy I use I like his work and I'd pay the extra $22.50, because it's still a hell of a lot cheaper then sending it off. Also almost all mom and pops just have the GS service as an additional function provided in a LGS.


To me this just feels like another back door tax.

[J.Baker]

No, you don't have to be a business. If you thread the barrel on your rifle yourself, you'd engaged in manufacturing based on their redefined definition and thus are subject to needing to purchase their permit. They make no statement anywhere about it having to be for sale or for profit. If you do any cutting, drilling or machining it's manufacturing - period. How they could ever enforce it on an individual level like that is another matter, but that's how it's written. As for licensed gunsmiths, the BATF has a nice database listing them all that they can share with State.

So why that specific language? Cutting, drilling or machining? Well, I guarantee you it has everything to do with 80% lower receivers. 80% receivers were always a low volume oddity until a few years ago when Polymer80 Inc. and ARES Armory decided to rile up the BATF by exploiting the loophole and making a big push with poly 80% lowers. Naturally this resulted in a huge boom in 80% receiver sales and in turn it got government looking into how they could put a stop to it. This new definition will do just that - and then some. Who's going to spend $2,250 on a permit to finish out an 80% lower when they can buy an Anderson finished lower for $50-60?

Now the real question is this: Are they actually going to issue these permits, or will they make up any excuse they can not to issue them?

As for putting smith's out of business, that will really depend on how much red tape is associated with DDTC and ITAR. Paying for the permit is one thing, having to pay an attorney (or several) to continually make sure you're in compliance with all the rules and regulations is another. What kind of additional record keeping is required? What or how many forms will need to be filled out/submitted for items made or services performed? This is where it could start getting to be more hassle than it's worth, which may just be what Obama's hoping many decide.

[yobuck]

It will be a moot point anyway if Clinton gets elected. Rewriting the constitution will be complete as soon as she appoints (her) choices
on the supreme court. So keeping what we have should be a higher priority for us than building new ones.

[tufrthnails]

No, you don't have to be a business. If you thread the barrel on your rifle yourself, you'd engaged in manufacturing based on their redefined definition and thus are subject to needing to purchase their permit. They make no statement anywhere about it having to be for sale or for profit. If you do any cutting, drilling or machining it's manufacturing - period. How they could ever enforce it on an individual level like that is another matter, but that's how it's written. As for licensed gunsmiths, the BATF has a nice database listing them all that they can share with State.

So why that specific language? Cutting, drilling or machining? Well, I guarantee you it has everything to do with 80% lower receivers. 80% receivers were always a low volume oddity until a few years ago when Polymer80 Inc. and ARES Armory decided to rile up the BATF by exploiting the loophole and making a big push with poly 80% lowers. Naturally this resulted in a huge boom in 80% receiver sales and in turn it got government looking into how they could put a stop to it. This new definition will do just that - and then some. Who's going to spend $2,250 on a permit to finish out an 80% lower when they can buy an Anderson finished lower for $50-60?

Now the real question is this: Are they actually going to issue these permits, or will they make up any excuse they can not to issue them?

As for putting smith's out of business, that will really depend on how much red tape is associated with DDTC and ITAR. Paying for the permit is one thing, having to pay an attorney (or several) to continually make sure you're in compliance with all the rules and regulations is another. What kind of additional record keeping is required? What or how many forms will need to be filled out/submitted for items made or services performed? This is where it could start getting to be more hassle than it's worth, which may just be what Obama's hoping many decide.

Good points. I hadn't thought of the cost of maintaining compliance or denied permits. Here's to keeping Killary out of the WH.

[Dennis]

Now the real question is this: Are they actually going to issue these permits, or will they make up any excuse they can not to issue them?

Look at all the laws that were put in place the last 30 years. They don't have the manpower to enforce these laws, nor do they have the manpower to enforce this one.

When they required all school teachers be fingerprinted and their background checked before being qualified for the job, well, it took our government years to acquire the equipment and personnel to get the job done.

I have talked to several politicians, and "MOST" are not aware their are gun related sports active in this country. But their making laws affecting it.

I have explained to them we are a very disciplined group of people who love our sport, and in no way are we associated with any violence. I actually asked one how he would like it if he were judged by his piers and put into the same group. I received a very strange look from this person, but I am tired of it.

JMO, Dennis

[tufrthnails]

I actually asked one how he would like it if he were judged by his piers and put into the same group. I received a very strange look from this person, but I am tired of it.

JMO, Dennis

Hahaha! they are judged by their peers and put into the same group. Only thing lower then a politician is a lawyer and that is now debatable!!!

[Robinhood]

Jim, How does this affect Savage shooters with regards to information being on an open forum. Looks like 3a could be interpreted to forcing all gun forums that discuss repair to become registration only and membership requiring verification of US residency.

[J.Baker]

That's the big question.

I thought this idea had come up previously and I was right - Obama talked about doing it a little over a year ago. Here's a few video's from back then that discussed it.








IIRC when this came up last year there was such a backlash against it not only from pro-2nd Amendment groups, but also the ACLU and other civil rights groups because it's an attack on both the 1st and 2nd Amendments. I can't imagine this not being challenged in court on the 1st Amendment grounds alone. Time will tell I guess.

In the meantime, I guess I'll be looking for a new job...

[Robinhood]

Can you restrict membership to US residents until it gets sorted out?

[J.Baker]

Nope, because in their infinite wisdom, ICANN (the organization that is responsible for issuing I.P. addresses) never had the foresight to set it up like phone numbers with country codes. As such the IP addy 219.0.0.001-100 could be in the U.S. and 219.0.0.100-199 could be in China and 219.0.0.200-299 could be in France and so on. And even it it were organized with a country code, all one would have to do is route through a proxy server in the U.S. to get around their country being blocked.

What really amazes me is how quiet everyone is on this, especially the NRA and Gun Owners of America. The NRA put out a brief statement on Wednesday and that's it. Nothing for six days after it was signed, and nothing more in the four days since.

[foxx]

I looked into this issue earlier this year. Was instructed to send an overnight letter to them stating specifically what I intend to do and ask if it requires the registration. I never heard back from anyone.

[foxx]

It would destroy the gun smithing industry, if not the whole industry. I truly believe it's grounds for INSURRECTION.

[Robinhood]

It would destroy the gun smithing industry, if not the whole industry. I truly believe it's grounds for INSURRECTION.

That may be what the ones in power want, Then it is marshal law.

[foxx]

So be it. You think I am kidding?

This kind of garbage HAS to STOP. NOW!


Ask yourself this: How does a new startup gunsmith even begin to be able to afford such a fee? It's NOTHING to the big boys, but absurdly expensive for the new guy. Completely contrary to principals of free enterprise and capitalism.

And it isn't limited to the gun industry, either. It's everywhere. We MUST object, under principal, or the whole country is DOOMED!

[foxx]

Suppose you "invent" a new and improved barrel nut... or trigger or spring... You won't be able to make it or sell it without first registering and paying the current fee of $2,500. If we accept this, then then what's to stop them from raising the fee to $5,000? NOTHING. and anyone who can afford $2,500 can afford $5,000 just as easily. I am telling you all, this is UNCONSCIENABLE and should have us all up in arms. LITERALLY!

[foxx]

Uh, oh... I'm getting riled up!

If it means martial law, I would rather he declare it NOW, while we still have our arms and ammo to defend ourselves with.