What is a mil?

[foxx]

Only speaking for myself, here...

I like FFP scopes for certain applications, not all. I am only trying to explain what they and mil/mil or moa/moa scopes are and how they are used.

Honestly, I have no actual experience in long range shooting! I am sure a trip down there would be rewarding and fun.
Maybe some day.

[darkker]

Classic Yobuck, starts mis-spelling my name when he's mad.

With as loudly as you bash the FP argument or at least bash FFP, it would appear that you do care what someone chooses. I disagree with you on this or that, but that's what this is about anyhow.
The thing I do find a bit odd with your view on this topic as it pops up a few times, you still don't seem to grasp the actual operation, and fundamental differences between the two when telling people your view.
Unless you don't want to, I'm not sure why the understanding seems to escape. So I don't have to re-type, and perhaps to offer another way of explanation to anyone interested; I'm stealing this from a post by MZ5.

MZ5 said:

My experience has been that most shooters prefer what they're used to. That applies both to mils vs minutes, and to SFP vs FFP. I frequently see people expound the virtues of their preference, but very rarely see a decent comparison of where or when each offers functional advantage. The below assumes that the FFP scope has a regularly-marked reticle (mil-dots, 2-MOA hashes, etc.). It is also crucial that the scope's adjustment increments match the markings. Combining a mil-dot reticle with moa adjustment clicks is unforgivably stupid.

Significant instances where FFP has the advantage in a variable-power scope:
-- Quick adjustments for windage or lead, in the field, especially on fast movers like coyotes. Doesn't matter whether you dial or hold, whether you're at low, medium, or high magnification, FFP ALWAYS gives you an accurate mil/moa scale with which to adjust.

-- Multiple targets at multiple ranges, under time pressure (eg. multiple critters, possibly scattering, or you're at a match firing against the clock). FFP allows you to adjust hold-over or hold-off very rapidly regardless of magnification.

Significant instances where SFP has the advantage in a variable-power scope:
-- Shooting at high magnification on very small targets. A FFP reticle can be made to work well here, too, but then it will likely be un-useful at low magnification unless your erector has a very low zoom ratio.

There are other situations, either fairly minor or unusual, where FFP has at least theoretical or potential advantages, but I see these as the majors. I can't honestly think of even any other minor instances where SFP has a functional advantage.

FFP is a bit more expensive to build correctly/accurately, and as many already know, a fixed-power scope makes SFP vs FFP moot.

Basically, then, FFP is functionally superior when flexibility or speed are of high importance. SPF is _generally_ functionally superior at very high mag on very small targets.

[LoneWolf]

Yobuck. 1 gallon milk jug at 1000yds. Initial wind call was 1.8mils for 10mph. Missed by .2 Mils right first shot. Adjusted and sent one... Impact! Now if I couldn't see my impact it would be a different story, but I also am very familiar with my setup. You'll also notice my spotters were about clueless of the impacts location. Mil reticles work very well when they are of a quality accurate design!

https://youtu.be/CDos9MBsjPc

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[yobuck]

Only speaking for myself, here...

I like FFP scopes for certain applications, not all. I am only trying to explain what they and mil/mil or moa/moa scopes are and how they are used.

Honestly, I have no actual experience in long range shooting! I am sure a trip down there would be rewarding and fun.
Maybe some day.

Well try to understand that knowing what the differences are, and the reasons some might prefer them, isn't the issue and whats lacking here.
Whats lacking is simply first hand knowledge of what a shooter, ( especially a hunter), actually requires to make a shot at long distances.
I actually have 50+ years experience doing it, and im saying it aint much. Especially as to scope and reticle type and the list could go on.
Ive offered up a challenge for those interested enough to come prove me right or wrong at our very nice camp where we can shoot from a lawn out to several miles. But I'm not really expecting any takers.
And for what its worth I'm not angry Darkker (fixed it), i don't get angry over things this trivial, especially when i know i'm right.
If you don't know i'm right that's your problem. lol

[LoneWolf]

It's not that you're right or wrong yobuck. It's that there's more than one way to skin a buck.... What's right for you is right if it works. What's right for someone else is also right as long as it works. What I've practiced and what you've practiced are two different ways of accomplishing the same task. And I'm sure a number of other members ways of doing will vary as well!

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[upSLIDEdown]

There are at least 5 spotting scopes with mil reticles in them that I can think of off the top of my head, and some have been around a while.

This thread has turned into another FFP vs SFP debate. While guys like yobuck do just fine with a SFP reticle, guys like myself and LoneWolf are much better off with FFP reticles.

Throwing down $500 bets is laughable, because the same could be done on the other side of the coin. With a rifle setup the way you're used to it, with your SFP scope, and however else it's set up, you'd play hell trying to do the type of shooting we do in a PRS style match with multiple targets, multiple ranges, 10 shots, and 90 seconds. Like LoneWolf said, there will always be multiple ways to skin the cat. People that are used to what they're used to rarely change. That's just the way it is.

[LongRange]

it's not that you're right or wrong yobuck. It's that there's more than one way to skin a buck....

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lmao!!

[yobuck]

I'm always interested in being shown other ways of doing things.
Since your moving east, you would be a perfect person to accept my challenge
and pass along the results to our friends here.
Since I'm also close to Ridgeway possibly some benefit can be shared by a trip to a match there.
Some of those boys seem to be strugeling with their ability in knocking over those steel targets even from a bench.

[yobuck]

The $500 is for those claiming they can range with a reticle and I thought that was clear but apparently not.
Again I didn't say shooters couldn't shoot with a ffp scope but apparently that wasent clear either.
As for hunting, the fact is none who are responding actually do it, they know that, and so do the few of us here who do.

[Robinhood]

Good night

[darkker]

As for hunting, the fact is none who are responding actually do it, they know that, and so do the few of us here who do.

That is also not true. I've been hunting(big game and varmints) with nothing but FFP's for the past 6-ish years.

[foxx]

Well try to understand that knowing what the differences are, and the reasons some might prefer them, isn't the issue and whats lacking here.
Whats lacking is simply first hand knowledge of what a shooter, ( especially a hunter), actually requires to make a shot at long distances.

But, Yobuck, "...knowing what the differences are, and the reasons some might prefer them..." IS the issue here (in THIS thread) and what is lacking here.

What isn't the issue HERE is whether YOU or anyone else finds them useful or even necessary. I'd say you are always welcome to share your opinion, but your life experience doesn't discount how or whether I chose to answer his question.

I was answering the OP's question. " WHAT IS MIL...?"

I admit I am not an experienced long range shooter. I don't have to be to know and understand what MIL's are and how they are used. If it offends or troubles your sensibilities that I would be so bold as to try to explain what I know about it without actually shooting at 1,000 yard ranges, so be it.

Beyond just trying to answer his question, I went ahead and answered your hypothetical question. Which I did. You simply rejected my answer because I did not say I would prefer to use your system. When, in fact, I could choose to do (no matter what scope I was using) by simply taking another shot and aiming off, as you would. Jeez-oh Pete!

[Rob01]

This is a pretty entertaining post. LOL Anyone who thinks using a SFP scope in PRS style comps will be as easy as a FFP either hasn't shot any matches or is fooling themselves. You can fight your way through a match with a SFP scope but why use the mind power to worry about a SFP scope and what power you are on when you can use it on making the shot and getting points. It's just one more thing to make your life harder. I haven't used a SFP scope in a match since 2004.

Also making that $500 wouldn't be that hard as I have ranged and made first round hits on many targets in matches especially the Allegheny Sniper Challenge out to just over 1000 yards and many inside. Ranging with a reticle isn't overly hard but you need to know target size and be able to break the reticle down to at least .1 mil and even better .05 to be more accurate and this is where a good reticle comes into play. Also a FFP scope as you might not always be able to be on the highest power due to conditions. Ranging over 600 yards or so takes practice. With the availability of good, less expensive LRFs, it's a skill that is being lost.

[LongRange]

we will be reticle ranging targets out to 950yds today and tomorrow and using pin and paper to come up with dopes...NO range finders allowed on this stage...ill let you guys know how it goes and how many first round hits are made on this stage.

[Robinhood]

*Can't be done by anyone on this forum.*
----Devils Advocate--- AKA Yobuck

[LongRange]

OH it can and we all know this...well almost all...as Rob said its done all the time in the PRS matches...as long as you know the size of the target its just simple math.

[earl39]

Ok i have been watching this and i THINK what Yobuck is saying is you can't range unknown objects accurately. If you don't know the size you can't range it. You might get close but that is because you are guessing the size of the object you are ranging. And this has gone completely off track from the OP's question of what is a Mil. You guys are into how to use them now and you use them the same way you use MOA hash marks just the numbers in the math problem are different but if done correctly the answer is the same.

[Rob01]

Using average sizes for objects/dimensions can make the hitting a target more accurate without knowing the exact size of the target but yes it would be less accurate than knowing the exact size. That said if you don't know the range at all you don't know what to put on the scope so you can't take the shot anyways. A LRF is a much preferable way to get range over using the reticle but the skill of using a reticle works.

All that ranging stuff said, it's actually low on the list of the actual use of a reticle. Using it for hold overs and unders, wind holds and movers holds are used much more frequently than ranging especially with almost everyone having LRFs now. In that, having a FFP scope makes doing all those things easier as you don;t have to worry about what power you are on or having to be on a specific spot on the power knob and doing match to figure what the reticle is subtending on that power. With a FFP scope you just dial the power where it needs to be for you to have the proper FOV and clarity to take the shot and then use the reticle. Simplicity makes the job of hitting the target easier.

[foxx]

... And this has gone completely off track from the OP's question of what is a Mil. .

Yes, Earl, we are off track of that question, but for a good reason. The question itself reveals a fundamental lack of understanding of the USE and APPLICATION of MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA scopes. Subsequent to that, the advantage of FFP over SFP is appreciated. Finally, once that is understood, the question of whether the oversized ( or undersized ) reticle is worth the problems associated with it to accomplish what it allows.

Once all is understood, a shooter can determine what is his preferred tool for his particular situation. I don't think there is a wrong answer, it just requires clear understanding of the tools and the shooter's needs/wants to make that decision.

To ME, the bottom line is that the MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA ffp scope is an EXCELLENT tool for practical/tactical shooting exercise, (make quick kill shots at various ranges), but not for precise shooting at various ranges. (hitting SMALL targets at various or known ranges).

[yobuck]

FIRST, id suggest everybody reread my responces, and (try) to soak in what I actually said, and not whats being implied.
Ill try to make it clearer by saying that Yes,yes, yes, if I were to compete in the type matches some here do, id own the best equiptment for doing that.
If that included a ffp scope with mil adjustments and reticle so be it, that's what id have.
But I don't shoot in those type matches and have no intention or desire to do so.
The dialing aspect of a ffp scope or a 2nd fp scope is the same, meaning no differences.
The only discernable difference then affecting a shooter, is the changing of reticle size as power is increased.
Which even our in house expert agrees, dosent matter if the power isn't changed, or with using say a fixed 12x scope.
Some obviously think that's a huge difference, and to them it might be, and some like me tend to yawn when its discussed.
Now Ill let you in on a dirty little secret. I had a ffp scope on my 30x378 for over 30 years, and only recently removed it in favor of a Nightforce.
A Bausch&Lomb balvar 6x24 varieable made in the 60s, a ffp scope made before many of you were born.
But I didn't own it because it was ffp, I owned it because it was a variable, and Unertles weren't.
And back then there weren't many others suitable for what we did with them.
If you go back to post #10, I jokingly tried to explain how to move a bullet from point A to point B.
Back when I went to school for this stuff that's how it was taught because there weren't any mill mill ffp scopes.
But 2+2 still equals 4 in my book, even though some obviously don't think it does.
As the old cliché goes its actually about as easy as rolling off a log, and anybody can do it with any scope with a dial.
MEANING, no need for mil mil ffp or any other freaking fp, FOR MOST APPLICATIONS,
which includes what I do with scopes and frankly most others.
I mean this whole thing is actually laughable.

As for Lonewolfs comments on I think post #28 regarding (his spotters being useless) or in any event no help to him in seeing his hit.
It appeared to me there was a guy laying beside him, no doubt looking thru a rifle scope.
And another sitting behind a spotting scope, but who appeared to be doing something other than spotting?
If I'm correct, then he didn't actually have an effective spotter.
But he did have what Darkker would describe as a (tall cotton) situation. lol
For the record, what I do by way of hunting, dosent require any special skills or ability, that anyone here dosent have.
Many of the deer we kill are taken by kids or others inexperienced in long shooting.
Those of us with the experience are the coaches and also the spotter.
But what we do does require, (at least where we are doing it,) is to be doing it in a certain way if you want the (best chance) at success.
In other words its sort of like shooting in certain type matches.
If Lonewolf or any others were to come here and shoot from the locations we shoot, he would very quickly reach that same conclusion.
I can (guarantee) he would leave with different opinions than he arrived with.
I can also guarantee his opinion on spotting would differ.


Rob01, you don't have to come to me, ill gladly meet you someplace convienant to you.
Someplace where you can show me how you can range various distances with your reticle.
Say targets like cows or horses in a very large pasture.
Or maybe a crow in a distant tree, and accurate enough to make hits.
Ill bring my rangefinder to confirm it.
Feel free to have someone take pictures of me handing you the $500 so you can post them here.

[foxx]

Okay, Yobuck, I can respect most of your comments in #45.

Where I take issue is this: WHY get on that stump whenever the topic of MILS comes up?

It seems akin to me saying, "It does not matter whether a .243 or .260 is a good deer rifle because the 30-06 is good enough for my purposes. That being the case, you needn't ask about them."

[Rob01]

Rob01, you don't have to come to me, ill gladly meet you someplace convienant to you.
Someplace where you can show me how you can range various distances with your reticle.
Say targets like cows or horses in a very large pasture.
Or maybe a crow in a distant tree, and accurate enough to make hits.
Ill bring my rangefinder to confirm it.
Feel free to have someone take pictures of me handing you the $500 so you can post them here.

No problem. If you want to learn how to do it you can just take our Precision Rifle 1 class, which runs $500 by coincidence, and we teach the use of the reticle and how to range. It's amazing as we have people come in who have been hunting and shooting for many years, have had guys with 30-40 years of hunting experience, and leave amazed at what they learn on how to employ a long range rifle. It all comes down to "you don't know what you don't know".

Here is a look at the areas I have ranged and shot targets in matches. Nice large open areas. Having a flatter shooting cartridge makes the odds of a first round hit higher as you can have a larger cushion. Usually knowing the target size I can get within 5-10 yards withing 700 yards and past that to around 20 yards. Not knowing the target size and using standard sizes for a horse, cow or crow will make it not as accurate, as I mentioned, and if you were making an ethical shot then you might not want to take an extremely long shot without a LRF but if the batteries die and you paid a lot of money for the hunt and can use the reticle to get you a decent range to target then you can take the shot. Ranging with the reticle is not the first line to figure target range but a tool in the tool box which is good to know how to employ.

ETA: here is a link to the ASC match page. You can see more pics. http://www.ascmatch.com/#!gallery/nxsth

[foxx]

^^^Total waste of time and money. Michigan's terrain and the deer habits here don't call for 500 yard shots. Anyone wanting to learn such skills is just gullible and kidding themselves.

[Rob01]

^^^Total waste of time and money. Michigan's terrain and the deer habits here don't call for 500 yard shots. Anyone wanting to learn such skills is just gullible and kidding themselves.

[yobuck]

No problem. If you want to learn how to do it you can just take our Precision Rifle 1 class, which runs $500 by coincidence, and we teach the use of the reticle and how to range. It's amazing as we have people come in who have been hunting and shooting for many years, have had guys with 30-40 years of hunting experience, and leave amazed at what they learn on how to employ a long range rifle. It all comes down to "you don't know what you don't know".

Here is a look at the areas I have ranged and shot targets in matches. Nice large open areas. Having a flatter shooting cartridge makes the odds of a first round hit higher as you can have a larger cushion. Usually knowing the target size I can get within 5-10 yards withing 700 yards and past that to around 20 yards. Not knowing the target size and using standard sizes for a horse, cow or crow will make it not as accurate, as I mentioned, and if you were making an ethical shot then you might not want to take an extremely long shot without a LRF but if the batteries die and you paid a lot of money for the hunt and can use the reticle to get you a decent range to target then you can take the shot. Ranging with the reticle is not the first line to figure target range but a tool in the tool box which is good to know how to employ.

ETA: here is a link to the ASC match page. You can see more pics. http://www.ascmatch.com/#!gallery/nxsth

Nice Rob, I'm guessing not far from where ill be for 6 months within the next couple weeks.
Id be glad to meet there and pick the targets id like you to range for me.
By the way, one nice buck in the rut and on the move chasing does around over there would have every one of those guys rethinking their shooting system. Because they wont have much success trying to shoot at him like that.
Rangefinder batteries usually last thru several seasons, and some of us have ones not needing batteries also.
How far would you like to see me range at that spot Rob and give you an accurate answer in less than a minit? Would say 3000 yds work? And look mom no batteries lol.
Seriously Rob if your serious about hunting spots like that let me know, and ill show you how its been done long before somebody showed me.
And its got little to do with guns or scopes or how well you think you can shoot.