Bought a Primary 4x14. Looks like a good scope ,very clear& focus is great. Waiting on stock from CDI before can mount up. What is the distance between the mil dots in in. at 100yds. & will that distance double at 200yds. I would like it in plane English, no formulas.
A mil is 3.6" at 100 yards or multiplied out 36" at 1000 yards. So it should be 7.2" at 200 and distance between dots should be 3.6".
That being said not all are created equal and the only way to find out is to shoot at the desired distance to check. Seeing as how velocities differ so will drop, also caliber will make a difference, as will bullet weight.
FROGGY
See profile for fire arms
Do it today there maybe no tomorrow
The simplest explanation is that it's the angle formed by 1 unit at a distance of 1000 of the same units. As froggy says, it's a yard at a thousand yards, half a yard at half a thousand yards, etc.
Dr. it doesn't get much easier than that.
If you want more explanation go to www.mildotmaster.com or www.longrangeshootingsimulation.com .
FROGGY
See profile for fire arms
Do it today there maybe no tomorrow
No, No,
You are looking at this all wrong. That PA scope(same that I have) is a FFP, Mil/Mil. So the distance between the dots is 1 mil. That is true at ANY magnification, at ANY distance.
The distance in the reticle is ALWAYS constant to the target, so don't think of how many inches you are off; just focus on how many Mils in the reticle you are off, then adjust accordingly.
...Unless you have no Google-Fu, and wanted to know a linear distance, for an angular measurement....
Mils and Minutes are angular, not linear. In linear terms, 1 MOA is 1.047 inches per 100 yards. Thus 2.094 inches at 200, etc.
Now milliradians, or mils. 6.283 Radians per circle, and 1,000 mils per radian. For a cross reference 3.437 Minutes, PER mil.
....See, angular Vs. Linear is a bit of a math mess...
Focus on the the target RELATIVE to the reticle, and adjust for the reticle. 1 mill between dots, turrets are broken into 1/10 mil, click value adjustments.
Last edited by darkker; 06-19-2016 at 04:21 PM.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
A mil is .001 of any measurement.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Thanks As soon as my stock gets back from cdi its off to the range. For right now I am going to use 3.5 in. per mill. Got to work up loads and then I will figure out mills. Thanks Mike
When all else fails, ask your spotter.
I don't want to shake you off somethign you're familiar with, but you might not understand how much simpler it is to use angular measurement. Like darkker says, a mil is a different linear distance at different ranges. Converting back and forth is really unnecessary. You can know the difference between POA and uncorrected POI in mils at any distance you like and then directly dial it into your scope or use the dots to hold over.
You can also hold on point A the target, and dial to point B the hit, without knowing anything about anything except how to do that.
But you do need to know that down is up and up is down and left is right (always) and right is left.
What could be easier? lol
lolwut?Originally Posted by Robinhood
That's a thousandth.
Well, "mili" is a prefix, meaning "one one-thousandth". We're using "mil" as shorthand for "miliradian", which is the approximate angular measurement of the 1x1000 triangle implied earlier.
You guys think about this all way to hard.... Use yardage to only as a reference to your "come ups" for drop correction. Mph for a windage value. Everything after that just use Mils and the reticle as your reference in 1/10 values. You only need the yards and wind for their reflective Mil value for corrections based on the ballistics of your weapon system.
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Last edited by DrThunder88; 06-20-2016 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Double posted but bad.
Maybe this has been said already... (I think it has at least once, but I am going to retry it)
For sighting-in purposes, just use the mil marks on your reticle to see how far off your shot was from the center of the target... 1/3 of a mil left and 1/4 of a mil high would tell me to move it 3-4 clicks right and 2-3 clicks down. (Each click is 1/10 of a mil)
Shoot another group, they should all be in the bull.
Ok, so assuming you've done that successfully. Suppose we now go shoot at a rock that I told you was (about) 1100 yards.
And you miss by (about) 2 ft in both directions. Its (about) a 12" diameter rock. Would you be comfortable using the mill
formula to assure a next round hit worth $100?
With an FFP scope, I would not worry about the range. If I could see where the round hit and the conditions (wind, elevation, temp etc.) has not changed, I would measure with my mils and adjust the scope accordingly, yes.
If I could not see it, but was relying on you (my spotter), I would expect you to tell me in mils how much I missed by. You could do that because my spotter would be using a spotting scope that is also marked in mils, and, in this ideal scenario, both scopes would be marked in true mils. Or, if we both used scopes marked in MOA, and the turrets were also moa, I would ask you to report to me my miss in MOA's.
Another option, if we were in a hurry, would be to hold off as much as the mils calls for. In any event, I would not want to know if I missed by 2 feet. It would only confuse me. I would want to know my miss in mils or moa.
In all reality, it doesn't matter because I have never even had an opportunity to shoot at that range. I am just explaining how mils and moa work when using FFP scopes whose turrets match the reticle.
What would you do?
Or (maybe this is your point) I would hold off by 2 "rocks" in each direction.
But that would work no matter what type of scope I am using. (unless I fart just as I press the trigger).
Well don't take this personaly, as I have no doubt you and all others here can in fact shoot well enough to hit a 12" rock at 1100 yds if using the proper equiptment to do so.
And it wouldn't make any difference what type scope was on the gun as for focal plane, or reticle.
As for your not needing to know the distance if using a ffp scope, let me say I have $500 that says there isn't a single person on this site willing to take the bet for scoring a first round hit using that reticle or any reticle to range with.
In fact ill even go further and allow for a wind error so long as the elevation is correct.
Keep in mind that dot reticles have been in use for eons of time. So in theory, a 1 minit dot will cover 10" at 1000 yds and please, no lectures about fp. Also remember this, at 1100 yds an error of 50' probably means you miss the rock.
There can be legitimate reasons a person might choose certain scope setups for certain type shooting and that's fine.
But accurate distance ranging isn't one of them, so don't be fooled by the b s some people might sling around about that.
As for a 2' miss, if you saw it, you should be able to figure out how you want to deal with it. As a spotter, id simply ask if you saw it, and if you ask for advise id be apt to recommend where you should hold. Or maybe even just say shoot again to see how you did that time. If it were 2 ft someplace else, you would probably be done as for my help if shooting at an animal.
As for having a mill scale reticle in a spotting scope, its possible but I'm not aware of any having that setup and I'm pretty much up on them.
I do have some friends who decided that was a good idea a few years ago. They mounted an identicle mil scale rifle scope on their spotting scope setup mounted on a tripod and used by the spotter sitting behind the shooter.
How much more perfect can it get? But you know what, it didn't work as well as they thought it would and they gave up on it.
I think Lonewolf said a mouthful the other day when he said in affect that we can overthink all this.
It actually dosent take as much thinking as it does doing to figure it out. Which from what I see is the main issue.
But once you do, you can also see there isn't much difference in what you use so long as you know how to use what your using.
And if you don't, then it wont matter what you use.
Virtual reality will never trump the real thing.
Last edited by yobuck; 06-21-2016 at 05:58 PM.
I may reply to the rest later when i have time to study what you said, but i said the range doesnt matter because it would be my second shot. (You said i had already missed by a couple feet each way.)
You have a few issues here that need corrected to keep the OP from getting mixed-up. It doesn't matter MOA or MIL, as Foxx said. But for my replies I'm assuming Mils, because that's what I shoot.
1) Yes, it does matter quite a lot actually. If you have a SFP, then the reticle DOES change size, relative to the target. So in a SFP scope 1 Mil is NOT 1 mil except at only one magnification.
2) Believe we've had this "bet" discussion before. Anyone in my neck of the woods is more than welcome to shoot me a PM and I'm happy to take them out shooting. A first round hit can be difficult in this country if it is windy, but it isn't voodoo to do it.
3) But the FP in fact DOES matter greatly to this discussion. 1 Mil is only 1 mil, when talking about FFP. It is also 1 mil on a SFP, but ONLY when used at the specific calibrated power setting.
4) Yep, I'm good with this.
5) This is absolutely incorrect. When using a SFP, your reticle changes size relative to that target. With a FFP scope, it is always constant, so ranging is quite simple. Understanding this is fundamental to operation of a scope.
6) I don't know of one either, but I also don't shoot with anyone using a spotting scope. My spotters are always using a rifle and scope, luckily for me, they use Mil also; so I'm in tall cotton.
I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.
Darkker already addressed many of my responses to Yobuck.
However, my reply to Yobuck's question was based largely on my MISINTERPRETATION of his question. (Yobuck has a vernacular all his own). :)
I thought he was spotting for me because he said, essentially, "this is the situation and then I TELL YOU YOU MISSED 2 FEET THIS WAY AND THAT." I thought that meant he was there spotting/observing, and I knew nothing more than what he was reporting to me, etc. Therefore, in my mind, it wasn't helpful to tell me I missed by so many feet. I needed to know by what mil or moa I missed. MY spotter would report to me in terms of MIL's or MOA's, not by feet or inches from the target. If I was shooting on my own, and made those observations myself, I would not thing "Oh, I missed the rock by so many feet..." Instead, I would say, "Oh, I missed by so many MIL's." If I was in a hurry, I would just hold off the same amount in the opposite direction and hope for the best. Regardless, I would NOT think aim 2 feet the other way... I would think, "Aim about the same amount in the other direction."
Again, the distance did not matter because I had already taken one shot and was "schooled" by it and his report of his observations. I might be good/lucky enough to make one hit shots, but I was already on my second shot. :)
As for "spotting scopes with MILS"... I don't know about those, either. But, if my spotter is gonna be able to help me, he would need to use SOME kind of scope with Mil's like my own. Probably be his rifle scope.
In case you guys are really wondering Leopold makes a Mark 4 spotting scope with a mil reticle
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32 (New King James Version)
Thanks for that update on Leupold spotters. Makes sence that somebody would do that and no doubt others will follow.
Well both Darkerr and Foxx are both still hung up on ffp scopes as being the only real choice, which is actually the gist of their entire argument.
Ive flat out called out anyone who claimes they can accurately range distance with a reticle. And ill go further and say those who think they can are on a fools errand.
Note I didn't condem ffp scopes, or those who prefer them. Frankly i could case less what anybodys choice is, but its also hard to read all the comments and not offer some opinion.
I know there are some on here from MI, I also know how far it is from Driftwood PA. Its an easy days drive, cmon down and get your mind set straight, ive got lots of room. Pump some more air in the pipsqueaks before you come. lol
Id also like to see some of those tiny groups shot on those rocks way out there. They usualy make little white marks when/if they hit.
PS I'm not smart enough to post pics, but I can email a few if someone could figure out a way to post them.
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