Reply With QuoteBarrels can be funny that way. Friend of mine got a top-of-the-line Krieger barrel a couple of years ago that just never did shoot good and I had a Pac-Nor in 7mm-08 that drove me crazy trying to get it to shoot.
Now before I start this is not an attack on Criterion barrels or any Vendor, just my results.
This barrel was bought for 200 yard BR score comps. , 308 1:10 @ 26" bull.
About two years ago I started load development for this barrel using 150 gr. Sierra Mk's and no matter the charge weight nor the seating depth could I get a respectable 5 shot group. Most all were 1" or more but when shooting for a 1/8th dot one inch don't cut it.
Next I went to 135 gr. Sierra Mk's with pretty much the same results, anywhere from 3/4 of an inch and up.
Then the Sierra 110 gr flat base, better but still not good enough for the game I play. Some with four under a 1/2" but then that one that turns it into 3/4 or more, always. This was an abbreviated test(over a 2 year period) all done with a clean barrel to start and 4-5 shots for fouling.
Now to be fair my actual BR gun is a PTA using a 1:8 twist 243 with 105 gr. Berger's and it shot low .2's most every time and many 0.163-.167 five shot groups, so they are capable of making match barrels, just not this 308.
After around 300 shots (attempts) I have decided to give this barrel a vacation. I will be screwing a Douglas barrel on this action ( mod. 12 single shot) and start over, hopefully with better results.
I will also call the C S people at Criterion to politely let them know my results and for their recommendations.
For general info this was all done with IMR 4895 through out the charge weights list in various manuals, and seating depths from slightly jammed to as far as 0.070 out. All testing done from concrete bench (dead level) with BR front rest (17 lbs.) and protector rear bag, and a bedded stock that was modified for better fitment to the BR style of shooting.
Like I said at the beginning this is not an attack on Criterion so PLEASE do not turn it into one, just my results and my luck of the draw with this particular barrel.
FROGGY
See profile for fire arms
Do it today there maybe no tomorrow
Barrels can be funny that way. Friend of mine got a top-of-the-line Krieger barrel a couple of years ago that just never did shoot good and I had a Pac-Nor in 7mm-08 that drove me crazy trying to get it to shoot.
I wouldn't write it off until I tried some different bullets and powders. Obviously it doesn't like the light bullets and 4895 but it may love a 168 and some 4064.
Not enough data points to determine yea or nah on the barrel. One powder with 3 different bullets will not determine if it is a dud or a shooter.
I've been at this a long time and if you can't get Sierra MK's or IMR4895 to shoot in a 308 there is a problem some where between the trigger and the end of the barrel. Now granted there may be better combos. out there but these should shoot from just about anything there is out there.
Now if this was a hunting barrel you would not of read a single thing about this, because 1" is fine for hunting, but and this is a big BUT it was bought for competition and anything over 0.3 just doesn't cut it.
On a side note I just installed a factory barrel on a friends rifle and shooting the 150's it is shooting between .3-.4 , so a semi custom lapped barrel should do at least as good.
FROGGY
See profile for fire arms
Do it today there maybe no tomorrow
i disagree...i had a 30" criterion that would not shoot anything i fed it...cut back to 26" and same thing...over 800 rounds fired...Originally Posted by rbp75503
powders...
H1000
IMR 7828
norma MRP
H4350
IMR4831
H4831sc
RL-17
RL-19
RL-22
bullets
123g amax
107g SMK
123g SMK
142g SMK
140g hornady match
139g lapuas
with that said ive shot out 5 shilen barrels EVERYONE would shoot 142g SMKs...i shot 850 rounds through a bartlein on my short action before selling it and it would shoot 142g SMKs...the krieger i just had go south saturday would shoot 142g SMKs....
this is a bartlein i spun on saturday after our LR varmint match...i shot a 24 round OCW sunday morning....went home and loaded up 35 rounds with the 3 best charge weights and went back out and shot at 425yds...this is 6 rounds not counting the one in the orange it was there from last weekend...142g SMKs 42g H4350
this is 42.3g H4350 142g SMKs lower 3 were at .015 off the lands...the 4(all i had left of this load)are at .025 off the lands...the one that looks high is a chip of paint not an impact...
the 142s also shot great at 41g H4350 but were only 2660 i think...42g is 2735 42.3g is 2760.....i shoot 2 bullets and 2 powders in the 260 and in EVERY barrel ive shot the 142s shoot...i know its not a 308 but you see what im saying.
just an FYI LoneWolf has shot 3 barrels with the same bullet/powder and seating depth combo.
3 XCALIBER barrels all chambered by Apache Gun Works in 243Win. My load dev is very quickly. H4350 115DTACs working charges from 40grs to 41.5grs a set .020 off the lands. Usually end up between 41 and 41.5grs every time and has always provided 1/2MOA results. Jim does all my barrel work ever since the first barrel he cut for me. I've placed in the top 3 with about 10rds through 2 of these barrels at long range steel matches.
I understand playing with a Prefit that you may not know the exact specs on, but if you have a chamber cut to specific specs it should shoot what you intend to shoot with very little load work.
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I have a CBI 260 Rem Match in a bull contour that I could only get 3/4 minute groups out of consistently. I tried 142 SMK and 140 Hybrids and H4350 as a propellant. I called Josh at CBI and he sent me a shipping label to return the barrel to them. I talked to him today and they didn't find anything out of line with the barrel. He said they would re-lap the barrel and re-crown it and send it back and if didn't shoot better they would replace it. Josh has been friendly and understanding, but I enjoy shooting more than I do putting barrels, scope mounts and bases off and on a rifle.
Seems like a more than fair offer from Josh.
For me its not that I may be disappointed, I have learned to try to keep at least one option viable while working on a problem (I once had two motorcycle apart for work and realized I could not ride either one until one or the other was fixed!)
I don't like a lot of futzing but a barrel off is pretty easy (at least with my setup) and would take me all of 15 minutes.
someone who supports their product is darn good in my eyes, you see too many times that if its 3/4 that's fine when you know it should be better.
If I was selling barrels, I would take it back, list it as that capability and sell for a reduced price rather than antagonize a customer who keeps coming back.
Froggy, I've had 3 criterion barrels and all were excellent shooters. 2 in 260 and one almost identical to yours. 308 1/10 but 28" long. One thing I can tell you from experience with that barrel and several others is the 1/10 prefers the heavier bullets. The heavier I got the better it shot. Up to 178 is what I tried. Couple savage barrels in 308 shot good with 168-178 but not with 155 amax etc. This is my experience.
I do have a few that shoot lighter loads, 150 game King for example in my wife's 308. But that criterion just liked a heavier round. I also never use anything but IMR 4064 for 308. It plain works for accuracy. I've tried varget and it was ok for hunting but nothing like the IMR.
I have to agree with hafe. Its been my experience that 1-11 to 1-12 twist has shown great results using 150 smk,s. Where as 175 smk,s and 4064 thru my 1-10 24" tube has been nothing short of consistent accuracy. Without a dought, that 1-10 twist prefers heavies.
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
I have two 28" Criterion Bull .308 barrels. just got the second one. the first has a little over 2000 rounds through it. it is a laser. the best five shot groups at 100 yds have been from less than .01" to .15"! that is not the average, obviously. but it does average in the mid .3's. i am using it in F/TR matches with excellent results. bullets working very well are 185 Berger Juggernauts, 175 SMKs, 175 TMKs, and Berger 168 Hybrids. Varget, IMR 4166, and RE 15 all work well with Varget taking the top spot.
the second barrel has only 175 rounds on it and the rifle is a copy of the one above. so far, it is not shooting as well. still working on loads with it although they seem close to the other rifle. the first barrel took some rounds through it before it settled down, so i am pretty sure the second one will eventually shoot, but maybe not as good as the first.
if i were you, i would definitely try the heavier bullets. however, i did for awhile shoot 150 Bergers through the first barrel and it shot those very good as well.
sounds like if you don't get the results you are looking for, Criterion will attempt to make things right for you
I have 2 Criterion barrels. Intended for varmint shooting. Both 204 Ruger, 1 large shank for target action and 1 small shank for Mod12 Varmint. Both actions worked over and bedded. Both do 20 shot groups well under 2" at 200 yds (on a good condition day). Very satisfactory for my shooting and age. Good barrels. My 2 Benchmark barrels are slightly better but appreciably more expensive.
My load for 308: IMR 4895 43g, Lapua brass, shooting 168 TMK. Shoots great to 1000 yards.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Nice rig. I love seeing 308,s perform like this.I have two 28" Criterion Bull .308 barrels. just got the second one. the first has a little over 2000 rounds through it. it is a laser. the best five shot groups at 100 yds have been from less than .01" to .15"! that is not the average, obviously. but it does average in the mid .3's. i am using it in F/TR matches with excellent results. bullets working very well are 185 Berger Juggernauts, 175 SMKs, 175 TMKs, and Berger 168 Hybrids. Varget, IMR 4166, and RE 15 all work well with Varget taking the top spot.
the second barrel has only 175 rounds on it and the rifle is a copy of the one above. so far, it is not shooting as well. still working on loads with it although they seem close to the other rifle. the first barrel took some rounds through it before it settled down, so i am pretty sure the second one will eventually shoot, but maybe not as good as the first.
if i were you, i would definitely try the heavier bullets. however, i did for awhile shoot 150 Bergers through the first barrel and it shot those very good as well.
sounds like if you don't get the results you are looking for, Criterion will attempt to make things right for you
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
thanks. this one is a shooter fer sure.
I have recently had the same problem, not being able to get a barrel to shoot. Tried different powder and charge weights, also different bullets. Finally had a chamber cast made and found that the chamber was larger than the SAAMI specs, Which I believe let the round chamber in a different position each time a round was chambered. I would suggest you get a chamber cast made and I'll bet you will find your problem.
I reload for both 308 bolt and my 308 AR. Both 1:10 twist. From everything I have read, 168 gr bullets are optimum bullets for the 1:10 twist. As was said above, try a heavier bullet and different powder before giving up on that barrel. Give varget and 168 gr match or A-Max a try. Or, bump up to 178 ELD bullets.
Savage 10 FCP-SR 308, 300BO PCS
I can only relate one experience with Criterion from NSS. I purchased a new 8 twist, match chambered barrel in .223 and am still in the load development stage. I intend to shoot only two types of bullets from this barrel; the 69 grain Sierra Tipped Match King, and Berger 73 grain Match, HP.
According to the Berger Twist rate calculator, the Berger is the better choice with an SG of 1.9. It also sits just at the lands when at ideal seating depth in the brass.
Right now I am still closing in on the load recipe for the 69 grain. At 25.9 grains of Varget it puts 3 of 5 under a nickel at 200 yds. By far, the best performance I've attained from any load from this gun (model 12 BVSS). I am hoping that tweaking the seating depth will bring the other two into the group, although total group size is still under 1/2 moa at this distance.
Of course, it could well be the shooter and not the load, and reading the wind is always the challenge.
Getting sub 1/2 MOA is awfully darned good (in my book)
If I can match that I will be a happier person indeed.
It means from time to time you get to go home with a .250 group feeling really great (and ignore that pesky 1 inch group you shot the next 5 of course!)
I have a NSS supplied Criterion barrel on a Savage action. this 1/9 twist barrel shoots 73 Berger target bullets in the .2's and .3's @ 100 yds. Varget and IMR 8208 XBR both do the trick.
I sent an email to Criterion about the barrel, have not heard back as of yet.
Also screwed on the Douglas and so far it looks promising only 35 rounds down the tube and one group is four in a hole (little oblong ) and one just out of the group. These are all left overs from a couple weeks ago that were loaded for the other barrel so I need to tweak a little.
FROGGY
See profile for fire arms
Do it today there maybe no tomorrow
One reason I got the X-Caliber was to cross check my shooting vs the original 12FV barrel. Long term needed anyway for the quantity I am shooting.
Also got antsy to get going and the 30-06 Bull is still 2 to 4 weeks out. Summer only last so long up here! (we shoot all year but I do like the more relaxed summer shooting)
An interesting twist (pun intended) was I fabbed up one load for the bull 308 (picked up some H168ZMax on a good deal) and the Savage barrel was shooting those as well.
Awful day wind wise at the range so have to repeat (unfortunately weekend was taken up by errands, medical appointment, house work, sigh)
Interesting The most accurate 10 twist 308 loads I have shot are 175 to 190 grain. For the 12 twist I have great success with 155's to 185's. Thinking the optimum twist for a 308 is around 11.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
The Criterions can shoot light bullets-here's a group shot at 300 yards with a .308 my buddy and I put together on a 700 action. I'm sure the group would have been under an inch if it wasn't for the pulled shot that I *****ed to my buddy about when I touched it off.
And of course, would you guess which shot of the five it was??????
I have some better groups but can't find them right now.
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