Random Extraction Issue

**RC20** · 06-02-2016, 04:18 PM

Yes, heavier crew type as opposed to various hand held.

**RC20** · 09-23-2016, 01:11 AM

So, I continue to explore the FPE condition. I continue to be in awe of the bolt design, for some reason I like its approach.

As an aside, when you come up with a Theory, its not being presented as a fact, its a possibility, an idea, an area to explore.

You then come up with ways to test that theory. Until you can consistently repeat and predict it, until then its just a possibility. Sometimes good and sometimes not.

In my world (tech, working on generators, switch gear, fire pumps, boilers, fans AC units, as well as various frequency converters (UPS, GPU, VFD), the worst thing you can do is think your assessment is fact. You take the facts, assemble a train of logic that seems to have validity for the fault and test it. It may not pan out but the test will point you in a positive direction or show you are not getting the results you thoughts and time to rethink.

With aftermarket barrels I am not experience any of the FPE (which I think is a better term Failure of Primary Extraction descries a condition with attributing a cause.

I did get a fired case stuck in the barrel that was exact symptoms of the FPE I had experienced. I will explore that further as well. I did not think to put the wedge in the baffle to see if that would get it out.
.
It lends some more evidence that its a chamber issue. Also stuck cases are over pressure signs, small chamber, rough chamber.

That said, I was coming up with larger cam throw than seems to be indicated. One suggestion was to disassemble a bolt and do a bare bolt throw check. Seems odd but will pursue that.

However, with the bolt in the gun and measuring the throw distance, I come up with .085. For those not involved in mechanical measurements and clearances , that's a huge distance. The new guns I own, have more effective throw and less babble gap that the older one. Both had the same issue (one old and one new and one it has not occurred with. It does take a fair amount of rounds (150) to get it to do that.

A thicker baffle in effect is like adding a shim albeit it not a large one (certainly not .020)

there of course is the gap on the baffle no matter how you measure it of .050. While I don't see why its there, obviously Nicholas Brewer the guy who designed it all was pretty amazing and knew what he was doing. I am not an engineer though its in my title, I am a tech. I continue to question that extraction would be weak. Others have designed extractors that are robust (as well as no extraction issues) and case heads seem to be able to take an amazing amount of abuse so designing an extraction cam that comes up short does not seem likely with someone of that capability .

Tolerance are now more than less for effective throw.

all the solutions simply reduce the free space between the baffle and the handle or receiver which gives ore extraction throw.

So it will be interesting.

In the end I may fall flat on my face, I have always learned more from my failures and equipment failures than the other way around.

It was suggest taking the firing pin out with the cocking pin and testing it. I came up with .080. Certainly well above the .035 listed. Not sure what that would prove that doing it assembled would not, same bench mark and baseline but I could have been missing something

Some more measurements and technique to get better repeatability but both methods are very close and certainly in the range of a course movement like this, even .010 should not be a factor (or if it is its a poor concept which it does not look like)

**RC20** · 09-23-2016, 09:12 PM

I just re ran an experiment. My Shilen barrel is head spaced normally, but I have other rounds fired in other 06

I found one that would go in, but would not extract.

I then added the wedge material on the far side, no extraction, I slipped it in on the cam side and out it popped out. Material was .020.

I call it a wedge because that's what I call when you slip something under a lever to get more throw out of it. Scotch is another term.

May not be mechanically or technically correct.

What that tells me is that fail to extract problem is due to stuck cases in the chamber not the lack of extraction.

Keep adding to the lever and it may be enough to overcome the stick.

Said stick can be carbon build up (hence the chamber cleaning) a tighter chamber that the dropping of brass expansion is not letting go, too much powder and over pressure (though my loads are all on the low side for the most part and no issues with the ones on the high end)

the point being no one knows what the cause of the sticky case is, one solution is to add a permanent spacer between the baffle and the receiver and get more more overall extraction distance

**Robinhood** · 09-23-2016, 09:17 PM

but I have other rounds fired in other 06
I found one that would go in, but would not extract.

So the cause of sticky cases is brass that has not been sized correctly and is oversized to the chamber.

I then added the wedge material on the far side, no extraction, I slipped it in on the cam side and out it popped out. Material was .020.

I call it a wedge because that's what I call when you slip something under a lever to get more throw out of it. Scotch is another term.

I wonder what would have happened if you put 040 behind the baffle?

**RC20** · 09-23-2016, 11:33 PM

There seems to be a reading comprehend issue at work here.

No, I did not say that. I am saying that I can re-create a FPE identical feeling situation with brass too long.

Stuck brass of any kind looks to be a FPE. Is it all causes? probably not. Is it the only cause, probably not. Is it a significant cause, I tend to think so

Could I be wrong, yep. But then I have had a lot of people tell me that on a lot of things and I was not.

the key is your ego tied up in it like the anthropologists that defend to the death that their finding is the end all and be all or do you have an open mind?

Sticky brass can be several issues as listed. Dang, maybe those early guys were right about continental drift.
Maybe it was not such a good idea to deal with snake bite by a tourniquet on that limb causing the poison to stay there killing it?

.020 was enough to overcome the stick problem directly behind the cam ramp on the baffle. .040 unstick it twice as well? Weird

Isn't that interesting though, .020 is , just what some people use behind the baffle to deal with FPE.

So plenty of extraction there unless there is significant problem. Hmmm.

Justin.D · 09-24-2016, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by RC20

There seems to be a reading comprehend issue at work here.

No, I did not say that. I am saying that I can re-create a FPE identical feeling situation with brass too long.

Stuck brass of any kind looks to be a FPE. Is it all causes? probably not. Is it the only cause, probably not. Is it a significant cause, I tend to think so

Could I be wrong, yep. But then I have had a lot of people tell me that on a lot of things and I was not.

the key is your ego tied up in it like the anthropologists that defend to the death that their finding is the end all and be all or do you have an open mind?

Sticky brass can be several issues as listed. Dang, maybe those early guys were right about continental drift.
Maybe it was not such a good idea to deal with snake bite by a tourniquet on that limb causing the poison to stay there killing it?

.020 was enough to overcome the stick problem directly behind the cam ramp on the baffle. .040 unstick it twice as well? Weird

Isn't that interesting though, .020 is , just what some people use behind the baffle to deal with FPE.

So plenty of extraction there unless there is significant problem. Hmmm.

Kinda rude out of no where to someone that is trying to help you, and I would venture to say that it is less of a "reading comprehend issue" and more of a lack of clarity in the riddles containing the information he has to go off of. Just my 2 cents.

**Robinhood** · 09-24-2016, 08:34 AM

My point about the shim RC was that I work with shim stock on a daily basis. .020 of any material does not bend and conform to sharp angles and shapes without some serious force. In my opinion when you placed the shim between the ramps, It worked better due to ta false effect of the shim not following the shape of the rear baffle. I'm sorry but from a mechanical perspective the opinions being expressed here are not indicative of common mechanical understanding. Not to say that anyone is dumb, quite the contrary. Just lacking in mechanical knowledge.

About PE, there is no reason to have PE if brass never gets stuck. Much of what you say is true about other factors being involved in some instances. There are many things people can do to a chamber that can cause cases extraction effort to be above normal. The responsibility of the gun owner is to keep sand and oil out of the chamber. It is the responsibility of the smith to get the correct finish in the bore. What is left is case design and pressures. WSM's for example will grow in the web area and will begin to make it difficult to extract after a few firings of the brass. The solution is new brass not a shim, screws or machining obviously.

Here is the kicker, If you can rotate the bolt 90* and the case does not move, Then PE is the first place to start.

It is not about me or you being being right. It is about accurate information. I could be wrong about the whole issue but If you are going to take a different position be deliberate and more precise in your argument so we can all benefit and learn.

**m12lrs** · 09-24-2016, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by eddiesindian

Ive had chambers give me grief because of gunk and or slag left behind which caused extraction issues. Simple cleaning didn't solve the issue in my case. I had to use a small amount of fine lapping compound along with polishing of the chamber after lapping.

Try this next time

**RC20** · 09-24-2016, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Justin.D

Kinda rude out of no where to someone that is trying to help you, and I would venture to say that it is less of a "reading comprehend issue" and more of a lack of clarity in the riddles containing the information he has to go off of. Just my 2 cents.

From your standpoint I can see that.

From mine its been what they now call micro aggressions, go home little boy and take your ideas with you.

the last post I see a change of tone.

My take is an ideology has been built around the PE and there is no discussion of it, otherwise it is heresy, burn him at the stake.
It may not be deliberate but again that is my take.

I have been told I hi-jacked another OP and should not be commenting?
I disagree but returned to an original post I did on this.

Per the post above, my information is accurate, how I got it.

Robinhood presented a procedure that was supposed to answer it all. While more involved it just confirmed the data the way I had done it.

I saw him chastise a poster for not being clear on what type of shooting the OP was going to do, when in fact the poster had clearly listed that he was target shooting.

So yes I say comprehension, and I have gotten a bit sarcastic.

Maybe this can go forward on a more upfront basis.

This really is supposed to be about helping people with an issue.

**Robinhood** · 09-24-2016, 02:29 PM

I'm not your friend and I am not your brother says you. I hurt your feelings, I assume because I didn't acknowledge your Idea as the correct one I assume.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. Please look at this from my and many others standpoint. We both spent a lot of time with our arguments. In the end it still boiled down to you sticking a piece of .020 shim stock in the wrong place rather than trying .040 in the right place to ultimately proving if you stick a blown out 06 case in your chamber, PE will pull it out, not polishing the chamber. LOL, You still got it done with primary extraction. It is that simple.

Again. I'm sorry if the truth hurt your feelings.

**Robinhood** · 09-24-2016, 04:40 PM

ouch

**RC20** · 09-25-2016, 10:28 PM

I brought home the dial indicator to see if I could get a better measurements.

Something around .050 to .055. for the cam throw, Still working on better precision.

That would be down from the previous attempts which put it at .080.

**BillPa** · 09-26-2016, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by RC20

Still working on better precision.

If you want better precision rip a page out of Sharpshooter's playbook. With the barrel removed take two measurements from the receiver ring to the bolt face, one with the bolt locked to battery and a second with the bolt unlocked pushed fully forward. The difference between the two is the available PE for that action and it's parts.

What it won't tell you is at what point in the bolt rotation the PE engages/disengages however if you use an indicator (dial or digital) to make the above measurements you can also determine at what point in the rotation it engages/disengages plus it's total length.

If you can't or don't feel like removing a barrel then the only other options are trying different parts or somehow changing the relationship between the bolt handle, baffle and the bridge, the reason I came up with his idea or my version of a "Band-Aid". Yes, I'm retired, old and lazy!

By drilling-tapping two blind holes for two 6-32/8-32 set screws so I can change the PE on the fly with only an allen wrench and without having to take anything apart but once. After determining the amount(s) of there protrusion a drop of 242 keeps them in their settings. If in the event any parts are changed they can be easily readjusted or eliminated all together.

At the moment there are six actions, two of my own using that mod with 100% success. It may not be the good, better or best option but it works.

Bill

**RC20** · 09-26-2016, 03:46 PM

BillPa: First nothing wrong with a quick fix, easiest for most people, I both like to understand the actual cause of the failure and maybe as much or more so, if its a design/production/tolerance issue why has it not been fixed?

Even easier (at least to try) is to make sure the chamber is clean, little time taken, can always bring the wedge with you to pop open while testing (I keep a small brass rod around for that sort of thing.

If you will pardon a pun, I just find it baffling as well as the oddity of it occurring with Savage barrel and not new one (so far)

Again its a theory, but exploring that, it would seem to be a sticky chamber issue (with any of the possible reasons)

And while not scientific as being true, getting a piece of brass fired in another barrel (longer head space) had it stuck with the identical feel of the ones I had stick.

The .020 piece between the baffle and receiver popped it loose just as reported by others (I know that varies, but that is what I had and it worked)

As note in a pervious post, the new Baffle being thicker (at least on my two) goes a small ways toward your solution.

The cam had a bit more rise to it as well.

Next time I have a barrel off I will try it Sharhooters way. What I ran into on the dial indicator was that once the bolt was open it would move back more as no longer forced to be forward.

I had to play with it to get a stable reading. In this case a thumb on the back of the bolt should hold it steady.

Do the set screws gouge the back of your receiver at all?

**jsund3** · 09-26-2016, 06:51 PM

Hi Bill, I'm going to try your fix tomorrow. I was gonna try the epoxy/shim but your fix it much simpler. I'll let you know how it works out. Thanks. John

**BillPa** · 09-26-2016, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by RC20

What I ran into on the dial indicator was that once the bolt was open it would move back more as no longer forced to be forward.

I use a Starrett clamp (169G ?) on OD of the receiver ring to mount the indicator and the receiver in a padded jaw vise. That way I can operate the bolt and watch at what point in the rotation the PE engages and by how much when the bolt is locked and unlocked pushing forward on the BAS.

Do the set screws gouge the back of your receiver at all?

None that I have taken notice to.

Bill

**Robinhood** · 09-27-2016, 06:32 AM

operating the bolt with the firing pin removed reveals much.

**Texas10** · 09-27-2016, 10:27 AM

I wish I'd put on a rain coat before I started reading this thread

sigfla · 09-28-2016, 12:20 PM

After having read these threads and watched a few youtube videos I think i got a grasp of the issue. I question why savage went to a ramped baffle setup to accomplish PE. The fix doesn't seem too complicated however and Savage OR an aftermarket producer of different size baffles would help. These guns are popular so hopefully someone steps up with the easy fix. In the alternative a guy with a lathe could prob shorten the bolt body a hair or 2 and allow the bolt handle to engage the cam sooner. Does anyone know if the aftermarket bolt bodies out there have this issue?

sigfla · 09-28-2016, 12:58 PM

I can see on my unfired new to me Model 12 that I have very little PE. My bolt handle engages the ramp very little and late in the lift cycle. Given the ball bearing setup in the baffle I wonder why Savage didn't use something similar to push the baffle away from the action? I don't see where having too much PE would hurt and it would accomplish the same thing as the set screws. Hell even a simple leaf spring screwed into the baffle would fix it.

**RC20** · 09-28-2016, 05:23 PM

I won't say its accurate, but the idea seems to have been to have less machining of the bolt. Assemble more easier to make parts. While a lot of parts its also simple. I am impressed with it.

I think the Axis do machine it into the back of the receiver.

A real machinist can weight in maybe. With CNC maybe is far less or no issue.

As for more ramp of effect, that gets into design and material strength. A really hung up case is going to stress the extractor as well as the rim.
It may not be the answer, its a possibility. Lesser material stretch when first built possible as well and just carried on.

How high is the ramp on your baffle (total front to back, and then the thickness of the baffle non ramp area?

The various remedies are effective, I force tested that. Question to me is the right question being addressed. I can see chamber variations being a factor as the reamer quality (new, how many barrels did it ream) as well as chamber finish and all hidden. If true, direct input to Savage would then get to where it needs to be.

I have read reports of rough barrel, none of mine are, but that would indicated a quality control failure. Its a hard or time consuming are to check on.

I know it can happen, my nephew got a Sig and the shells were all marred and failing to extract right. They replaced it, pretty non Sig reputation for quality though and very obvious when you looked, so no one looked, no automatic quality check or....

**RC20** · 09-28-2016, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Texas10

I wish I'd put on a rain coat before I started reading this thread

Well unless someone was forcing you to, you did not have to keep reading did you?

If someone is let us know, we can call the Jandarmes to your rescue.

**Robinhood** · 09-28-2016, 05:37 PM

Good comments and questions Sigfla. Many Savagesmiths have used BillPA's fix.... and a fine one it is. Gunsmiths on the other hand, put the bolt body in the mill and shorten the bolt handle end of the body after taking some measurements. they may use the shim between the baffle and the rear of the action and remove that amount from the rear of the bolt body. Manufacturing tolerances on several dimensions and even wear can cause the problem.

If someone trues an action they may skim the lug abutments and they may touch off the rear of the bolt head. take too much and PE rears its head. The only fix is to shorten the rear of the bolt or to add material behind the rear action face in front of the rear baffle.
As for the reason savage used that method....Take a look at the rear of other manufacture actions. Look at the difficulty of machining. Savage cast a piece and is done with it. Remington has its share of PE issues. Ive seen many Rem. actions/rifles with changed bolts that have no PE.

sigfla · 09-28-2016, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Robinhood

Good comments and questions Sigfla. Many Savagesmiths have used BillPA's fix.... and a fine one it is. Gunsmiths on the other hand, put the bolt body in the mill and shorten the bolt handle end of the body after taking some measurements. they may use the shim between the baffle and the rear of the action and remove that amount from the rear of the bolt body. Manufacturing tolerances on several dimensions and even wear can cause the problem.

If someone trues an action they may skim the lug abutments and they may touch off the rear of the bolt head. take too much and PE rears its head. The only fix is to shorten the rear of the bolt or to add material behind the rear action face in front of the rear baffle.
As for the reason savage used that method....Take a look at the rear of other manufacture actions. Look at the difficulty of machining. Savage cast a piece and is done with it. Remington has its share of PE issues. Ive seen many Rem. actions/rifles with changed bolts that have no PE.

Its a great and simple setup for sure. There is a ton of aftermarket available so along with the "Pro" fixes it seems a larger rear baffle should be available from somewhere... I do wonder however if a simple leaf spring or even a grub screw (going all the way through to be adjusted from the rear forward) is a better option for Savage. I can envision a gun wearing to the point that PE becomes an issue even if it wasn't when new. Certainly a clean chamber and good fully sized brass would improve the situation but a better fix would be in a simple redesign of the baffle. They could even produce them oversized and let the final fit be done with a hand file or lathe. I don't think the baffle has to be perfectly square to the rear of the action to work right. The oversize portion could even be a sort of built up tab in front of the ramp, between it and the action so only a small portion would need to be filed. All they need to do is modify the mold a bit for that part.