I have read the primary extraction fac as well as some comments on it.
I have had some random sticks, well under full loads, no scratch on the case. Not bad enough so far as to need to run a rod down the bore and tap out though I have one now.
Seems maybe a brass sizing issue and have not had it for a bit now.
Still curious on the problem and any comments.
You have extraction issues with unfired ammo and you have extraction issues with fired ammo.Seems maybe a brass sizing issue and have not had it for a bit now.
Unfired; could be bullet is stock in the lands ore like you said maybe a sizing issue.
Fired; more than likely primary extraction.
WSM; Brass issue.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
All mine are with fired. Hand loads, have not shot any factory. 308
Ran into it again, thanks to the info I played with it. Fired cases only. Seems somewhat brass centric but have to get more tested, has done it on other brands. Definitely works better if you make a point to lift bolt all the way to the stop
You have a primary extraction issue. Test it by inserting a .010 or .015 feeler gauge between the action and the rear baffle when you have the issue. It should engage the ramp and easily pull the case out. To fix you will need to close the gap between the rear baffle and the action. You can A; fix the bolt body, B; try the set screw method or C; try different bolt handles till it works. A or b is your best bet unless you have/find a SSS handle.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Thanks, I have been warping (pun intended) my mind around this.
Question: Is this a issue with rough chamber vs primary extraction per see and better mechanical advantage overcomes it?
I am going to do a bit of experiments, I have a chamber brush and will clean the chamber well, try that (and have feeler gauges)
New rifle and I gather it would have to go back to Savage for a factory fix (can't send bolt in).
As this seems pretty common is there any recent communications with Savage on this?
Also occurred to me that while new, the rear bolt screw could be loose (or maybe not tightened down).
I have a somewhat older Savage and no issues with that one (so could swap bolt handles) any input on Savage take for dissemble that part warranty wise? (or even taking the barrel off?)
They put the mother of all glues on the other ones bolt I had, took a combination of suggested break loose (the step on it with your foot method) but on a bench with a rubber mallet to break loose (rupture disk issues and am carefully about sudden jolts to the back these days!)
Also would suggest a sticky about this with the various remedies including a sticky chamber (brass is coming out good so less suspicious but seems possible you could have varying degrees of that.
Unless you have boogered it up, leave the chamber alone. All bolt action rifles are designed to have primary extraction. Even Remington has problems. If you experiment with the feeler gauges you will understand. A light bulb will go off so bright you will need sunglasses.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Just plan on cleaning the chamber with solvent and the chamber brush , leave any polish work up to gun smith if that's required.
Got it on the feeler gauges, continue to scratch my head they would not get on this.
Concepts are well internalized, just not used to applying them to this, new and interesting area.
I won't mention in detail about a Fire Pump we got turning backward because of a revere water flow and the engine started as it had a fuel source (failure of some kind)
That's the sort of thing that your brain twisters in a pretzels over for sure! A bit similar as had not heard of or experienced it but the Savage has got some aspect to it on the bolt I had never seen and different from others.
That's why you have a check valve on the discharge side Hehe. Although I only see them on Fan shafts I'm sure they have anti reversing collars for Centrifugal pumps.I won't mention in detail about a Fire Pump we got turning backward because of a revere water flow and the engine started as it had a fuel source (failure of some kind)
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
I got a lot of goo out of the 308 Chamber, not sure where it came from, new gun, clean loads, residual factory polish?, residual gun solvent or oil,? hmmm. Never had that before.
Be interesting to see how the next session goes.
Pumps: hooked to a common test header but intent was only to test one at a time, no back checks though its been discussed. Annoying as hope was to run two pumps at a time for weekly test (required). 3 hours vs 1.5. Ahh well.
I have had fans with the anti reverse bearing. Utility reverse phased our building and it ripped them off! Add insult to injury, the building did have a power monitor that had the mother of all disconnects but they only picked power loss feature and not reverse phase for the Power Monitor, amazing. We of course got the model that had that.
At startup you always check rotation. Not as common as it used to be but it is real easy to get a three phase motor.running backwards.
Ive had chambers give me grief because of gunk and or slag left behind which caused extraction issues. Simple cleaning didn't solve the issue in my case. I had to use a small amount of fine lapping compound along with polishing of the chamber after lapping.Originally Posted by RC20
Life is tuff.....its even tuffer when your stupid
{John Wayne}
Check valves between the pump and the block valve is mandatory in our industry as equipment must be worked on will the process in under pressure. Loss of primary containment is not an option with Methylethelbadstuff in the pipes. Checking Rotation is also mandatory every time a motor has been disconnected. Rotation is checked with all driven equipment uncoupled. Process safety is always a consideration.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
These are engine driven fire pumps, its required by NFPA to run them once a week (diesel for 30 minutes).
What they did not account for is the diesel are two cycles (94 still made) and don't take kindly to low load (and they are hot rodded for the application as they will run less than 500 hours in 50 years.
Anyway, also required is an initial acceptance test to prove they do what spec says as well as yearly to confirm they still put out.
All that means flowing 4500 gpm in this case (maximum). Only way to do that is a test header so they T the discharge and isolate it with a valve. Want to test open valve (and the play pipes outside the building for various flow rates up to 4500 gpm.
Never meant to do more than one at a time, not intended as a remedy, but the pumps don't like churn (damage inside volutes) and the engine don't like low load so we have been testing at 100% flow, helps the engines but the pumps still get a weird form of cavitation even though we are flowing at 1800 gpm.
Flow loop should stop that, trying to figure out how much flow, good idea to test two at the same time and cut the test time down, but that created a recirculation loop through the non running pump (would stop if you turned it on) ergo, turning backward and doing an ugly sort of combustions via residual oil. All fun
I may bet a 308 barrel and pull the one off and take a look. Query into NSS on availability. Can't have too many barrels!
a chamber mop soaked in solvent and chucked up in a cordless drill should clean it up really well.
you could even used a fine grade lapping compound on the chamber mop to really clean it up.
I would do both of these processes with the barrel off the action and chucked up in a padded vice.
I have not heard of a chamber mop
I have a chamber brush, soaked in solvent and on a aluminum rod section, chucked into a drill. All carefully done of course.
Not sure I want to do any lapping, but will check into it if it does not work.
Savage return you have to pay the freight , that would be $50-60 from here.
Easier to do any lapping with barrel off?
Here you go
http://shop.brownells.com/gun-cleani...G6saArSi8P8HAQ
I have seen those, may even have one buried some place. Had not hear the term or knew what they were for. A new learned thing.
I am going to give the 12FV another round of cleaning and see what comes ojut.
I cleaned the chamber and problem went away. Awfull amount of goo built up.
Now I have to figure out if I oiled the chamber well or not. I cleaned the 111 as well, one or the other I did not make sure to oil the chamber real well and now the old 111 (2003 to 2010) is sticky! 111 had about 1/3 amount of goo.
I'll get it, just have to repeat and test.
Do not use oil in the chamber.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Good discussion point. I am not sure I got all the lube out of the chamber of the 11. I am a lube it guy, but I run dry patch through the barrel when done. We are pretty dry so rust is not a major issue. If I was in high humidity I would leave it in the rifle until I took it out to shoot.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/GunTech/....htm?lid=16128
Long term the chamber is a plain steel (at least in the case of Chrome Moly) that can rust. Usually the chamber gets oiled by the oil patch run down the bore.
This time I cleaned the chamber and don't remember how I treated it. You certainly don't want any excess in there (i.e. I am defining that as a film that does not come out when dry patched)
On the other hand some machine guns had an oiler for the cases or they did not work.
The huge do not do it was grease on bullets.
So this last cleaning while I did clean and lube the chamber I also made sure it was as swabbed out of excess oil as the bore with the dry patch run through it.
Will report in a week or two.
My apologies, I assumed (you know what that means) that you used oil to help with the extraction issue and not for rust protection.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Thank you but also none needed. I surveyed for a lot of years, cross checks were not only good, they were mandatory.
Shooting done wrong can get you hurt or killed, we look out for each other. Better to check than assume. You did the right thing.
I also think its a good discussion to repeat as new people are exposed to this all the time. A lot of times you don't know you are missing information until its too late.
The greased bullet debacle of the 20s or 30s was a case in point where myth trumped common sense.
Surveying it was a way of life not only to read back numbers, but if you saw something that did not seem right, you questioned it. I worked with some of the best if not the best old time surveyors and they made mistakes but a lot fewer with cross checks (the monument we found 13 feet out of position was an example of bad surveying)
On one we spent 20 hours of field time, rented electronic distance measuring equipment etc before the owner found that two lines that looked to be parallel actually had a 3o or 40 seconds difference, enough to throw a zark into the entire lot (big lot) we were surveying. He used the same bearing for both lines, his mistake but you can understand that two lines that would normally be parallel and aren't? No reason, weird (often lines are not but its obvious not that close, about like having a different bearing on two side lines on a house, huh? ) . I don't know how much office time he spent going over all the angles and distances and slope reductions.
Some years back we got a book on bolts from the Bowman rep. Best fasteners reference I eve came across. Lock washers had been disallowed by SAE (I think) since 1974? Something like that. Until then I thought it was critical, since then, no way. I doubt I am the only person who ever took a drive shaft apart only to fine a broken lock washer under the nut.
BMW on their cycles had the same thing happen, they put out a bulletin, from this date on, you will use no lock washers on a drive shaft, none. If you find them you will replace them with a flat washer PN XXXXXX
Ok, a bit of a run on, but I hope we all can accept a good question of practices in the spirits its intended.
Oiling machine gun cartridge as nothing more than a bad need to accommodate a crappie design.
They also operate from the open bolt design.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
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