Hey guys
so talk to me. I've got a couple of TC Dimension rifles with 5R rifling and they are fantastic shooters. And in my 243 a 10 twist stabilizes 105 grain hornady match bullets which I'm told shouldn't stabilize and I gotta admit both rifles clean very easy though I only clean when groups open up and it's been months since I've cleaned them with many hundreds of shots
So I was wondering if anyone has any real experience with the different rifling profiles we are now seeing and if you've got a favorite.
I just bought a model 11 22-250. So I'm considering a 260 barrel because the bolt face works and I like the cartridge. So I'm currently looking at various aftermarket barrel suppliers.
So if you've got experience using the various rifling profiles and can add some fuel to the fire I appreciate your input.
I'm definitely liking the 5R profile but I'm wondering if there is a better one out there and what people's experience is with the various new options.
I hunt however I spend most every weekend shooting,whether it's prairie dogs,milk jugs or paper I'm shooting at something.
This model 11 is a 12 twist varmint barrel. Savage of course. Shoots great groups with factory 55 grain varmint cartridges. I just waiting on dies and stacking up enough brass then I'll start reloading for it.
This thing shoots great. Off bags it rips a ragged hole even once it warms up and gets hot. Doesn't pull either direction which I will say impressed me. Unsure of how many lands and grooves the 22-250 comes with though or if it's one of these new profile options either.
Anyways thanks in advance for your input.
Mods, if I'm breaking a rule feel free to delete.
I'm linking another forum that a pretty well known barrel maker comments on frequently. It'll be obvious which posts are his. Interesting takes on rifling and twist. Hope it helps.
http://benchrest.com/archive/index.php/t-90372.html
http://benchrest.com/archive/index.php/t-48323.html
this is my experience with the barrels you mention....first 5R refers to the shape of the lands more so than the number of lands...5R riffling has a cant on the lands like a V shape so to speak and is said to cause less fouling and seals better...5C conventional cut riffling is shaped more like this [ with no or very little cant on the lands...shilen ratchet riffling i believe is still a button riffled barrel...im not 100% sure but i think the ratchet riffling is just a more precise way of pulling/pushing the button through maybe Fred or someone can clarify.
with that said ive shot all of these...shilen button and ratchet...criterion...bartlein and right now a 4 grove kreiger...
shilen...all 6..2 in 300WM 1 button one ratchet...4 in 260rem 1 button and 3 ratchet...have ALL been tac drivers and if i only had button riffling to choose from id take a shilen over any other.
1 criterion in 260rem...not impressed and ill leave it at that.
bartlein in 260rem...STUPID accurate and held no or VERY little copper...so impressed that i will never shoot another button rifle barrel again.
kreiger in 260rem...i have 510 rounds through this barrel right now and the only reason i chose this barrel over a bartlein is because i wanted to see for myself how they shot because most of the top guys at the matches i shoot are shooting kreigers and love them....when i built my newest rifle i had this kreiger and a bartlein chambered exactly the same at the same time just in case and also to compare it to the barlein performance wise.
my thoughts at this point...STUPID accurate like the bartlein and holds no copper.
a few things ive noticed from button riffling to 5R to 5C...while the shilens were ALL tac drives they held copper and ALL needed to be cleaned more often to remain accurate...between 200 and 400 rounds in the barrels i shot and at initial break in took more cleaning...also the cold bore shot is a bit more consistent in the cut barrels and they seem to be more consistent from cold to hot but some of that may be do to the lengths of the barrels as well as fouling...ive shot 30" 28" 26" and now 24" barrels and the shorter ive gone in length the more consistent they seem to shoot from cold to hot.
there is no difference in fouling from the 5R to 5C that i have noticed and IMHO is also a factor in consistency.
i am keeping very strict notes on the kreiger im shooting now so that i can compare it to the bartlein when the time comes and one thing that has really peaked my interest is the speeds...i have 4 loads worked up for this barrel 1 with H4350 and 142g SMKs..1 with H4350 and 130g berger hybrids and 2 with RL-17 and 130g berger hybrids...the RL-17 loads are my favorite and give me the lowest ESs and impressive speeds.
after shooting a few cut barrels i dont see myself shooting anything but cut barrels...they are quite a bit more than a pre fit but worth every extra penny.
I'm on the end of the barrels that many people will never see, chambering threading etc. I have used pretty much every barrel under the sun and some I wish never came in my door. I used to offer button rifled prefits that I machined in house along side Brux that I have been offering almost from the start. From my experience cut rifled barrels are usually always drilled straighter, almost never have any copper fouling, and last longer. Every button rifled company that I have dealt with usually had some sort of problems with barrels, some minor and some so bad I won't allow in my shop. I've had multiple customers order a bruxs barrels and then later tried something else and ended up ordering a brux to replace it. It's always worth the time to see what barrels are winning matches and holding records, some of the barrels out there will never be on those lists.
What he said ^Originally Posted by LongRange
Awesome info. Thank you so much guys. Long range,you pretty much answered my question perfectly.
I was considering criterion because I was up all night last night reading the aftermarket barrels forum. Got to page 20 before nodding off.
So if I'm reading you right you're saying bartlein and krieger are on par with each other so far and the shilen were great but required more cleaning vs the other 2.
I can source shilen barrels from my supplier however I think he can order bartlein.
So are we saying forget these new profiles and run with cut rifling,or the fad actually has merit?
Thanks again for the great answers. You guys are great.
as i said the 5R and 5C refer more to the profile of the lands...5R are canted...5C are square and both are cut riffling...and both are proven and have been around a long time.
yes at this point the kreiger is just as good as my last bartlein...yes all of the shilens ive shot were equally as accurate but not quite as consistent from cold bore to hot bore and required more cleaning to remain accurate.
as i said cut barrels are more money...i pay right at $600 for my barrels including blank shipping and smith...you can get small shank savage pre fit bartleins from southern precision for $500 i believe.
are button barrels accurate?..this is a 5 shot group at 100yds that measures .295 outside edge to outside edge from a shilen barrel i still have...but to remain this accurate it has to be cleaned ever 250-300 rounds...
this group is from a bartlein barrel i just sold...this group was shot with 600 rounds without cleaning...8 rounds at 100yds from 2 different lots of bullets...
Good Information!
Well long range you've sold me.
Now to see if bartlein sells a prefit unit for my model 11. If not shilen will have to do.
Thanks for helping me wade thru the noise with real world experience. If you read the marketing fluff all these new rifling choices are touted as the next best thing since sliced bread.
I have done a lot of reading about the 5R though. Boots obermeyer stole the design from the soviets and patented it here. That's a neat tidbit of info.
And you gotta figure the military is using it for a reason. I figured it was because less maintenance of the rifles which is a bonus in the field,and still retains accuracy/consistency.
My 5r barrels seem to stabilize heavier bullets however that might not be a consistent thing with all variants.
Anyway thank you very much guys. I am glad there is a resource like this where a guy can ask a question and get a real world answer without the marketing drivel.
Krieger, Bartlien, & Brux are your "high end" barrels. Really, it depends on which one you can get the quickest. All are good.
We have great success with button barrels too. A lot depends on who is chambering the barrel. I received a new Savage 308 take off, I hand lapped it and babied it as well. It is one of my best shooting barrels and hangs in there with the best of them.
5R lands are canted, which basically means the lands are "broken in" from the start. The others have sharp edges, no problem, but that's the main difference. Canted lands are known to get a few extra fps from the start.
Hope this helps you.
Dennis
[B][SIZE=3]Dennis[/SIZE][/B]
Thanks Dennis.
Ive seen the profiles as cut always and it's obvious the differences in them I was just wondering if they shot different and if one profile was inherently more consistent than another.
Already contacted krieger and they have a 6 month wait time and won't ship to Canada anyway so my supplier has shilen in stock so I'm thinking a 7mm-08 and 20 practical are in my future
Thanks guys.
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