MAJOR Savage 11 6.5 Creedmoor Problem: HELP NEEDED

[md7989]

Good morning guys, this is my first post here and it's a bit of one at that. Have read many threads on here but decided to join to maybe get some more opinions on this subject. I posted it on the ar15 precision rifle forum as well...here it goes:

I went to shoot my Savage 11 6.5 Creedmoor this past weekend since I recently installed a B&C M40 stock and PT&G bottom metal. The gun ran great and shot great for the first 24 rounds. I shot 20 rounds of factory 140 gr AMAX (4, 5 shot groups) then switched over to the factory 120 gr AMAX. Shots 21-24 of the day (1-4 of the 120s) produced a 0.46" group, better than the 0.61" I got with the 140s

Then trouble struck...

I went to chamber the 25th shot of the day (5th 120 gr) and it would not chamber the round. The bolt is like an 1/8" shy of going forward enough to close. So I brought it home and looked in the chamber, and all appears clear with no obvious obstructions. The bolt face is clean and debris free. I then measured my chamber length using a modified case and a 140 gr AMAX and that's when things got really strange...

Before shooting this gun, the chamber length when using the modified case and a 140 AMAX was 2.2155" to the ogive (using comparator). NOW it is only 2.049" to the ogive using the same modified case and same 140 AMAX.

I HAVE LOST 0.1675" OF CHAMBER LENGTH!?!?!

I have checked everything multiple times, cleaned the gun, made sure nothing is obstructing anything and it's still the same. I even took it out of the action and made sure my barrel it isn't loose, and everything is tight as it should be so I do not believe headspace has changed but rather some obstruction/burrs/buildup is present. The gun cycles fine and bolts closed without any ammo present. The gun only has 49 rounds through it for its entire life and every round chambered as smooth as the other. This hit all of a sudden.

DAY 2 UPDATE: After reading many suggestions from the other forum thread, I cleaned the gun very well and regained the chamber length that I had before this issue arose. But now I am getting scarring and marring on the bullets. And let me clarify...I was getting the scarring/marring before the thorough cleaning took place that helped get back the length, so I know I did not "burr it up" with my cleaning. When I chamber a factory 120 gr AMAX, it makes a scar/scratch down the length of the bullet from just under the polymer tip to right before the case starts. When I load a factory 140 gr AMAX, I get marring on the leade area of the bullet and the bolt is hard to close with noticeable resistance on closing and opening the bolt. The bolt cycles fine with no ammo present and also cycles fine when using a spent piece of brass I previously fired. It's almost like some type of buildup is there around the leade area that I can't get out but it only developed in those 4 shots with the 120s.

Below are some pics. The first pic shows how the bullets were looking right when it happened before I cleaned and regained my chamber length with the one on the left and middle being 140 gr and the right being 120 gr. The second pic shows the 120 gr after I cleaned and how they're being scratched up. The third pic is of the 24 pieces of brass fired this range trip, all of which look fine. And the bullet I used when measuring chamber length with the modified case also got some marring on the leade area, although not as much likely due to be being more gentle inserting it with the overall length gauge vs. the bolt twisting and inserting it with a legit round of ammo.

Anyone have any idea what happened? This is very baffling to me. I have a borescope arriving in the mail this afternoon and will be peeking inside the bore for a better look. The barrel seems great to shoot a 0.46" group...but something odd is going on or did go on with those 120 gr AMAXs. Your help is much appreciated.

-Mike

[lrshooting]

Im not sure if I missed anything, but did you try one of your old cases that you did get to fire? That will at least take out the possibility its a headspace issue such as debris is stuck on the shoulder in the chamber. You may even cut the neck off one of your cases and if it fits but you full case doesn't, then its in the neck part of the chamber, obviously. After you do those two steps, its obviously the bullet. I assume since you said you lost some ogive to base length, then you must have data on your original. Make sure you didn't somehow get bullets mixed up and are using a differen't bullet. I doubt you are, but its surprising the little things we miss because we are so worried about something being much worse.

I mean .1675 of length is substantial. It kind of sounds like you lost your freebore somehow. Im not sure I understand that...Its possible you had some brass flow that got stuck due to overly long case length?? Maybe try running a brass brush down through from the muzzle if you havent already. Just be careful at the crown.

You can also push the brush up through the chamber end, and pull it back out after you get just past the throat area. I dont necessarily advise it, but ive done it in a pinch when I get a stuck case. The brushes fold backwards, so when you try to pull back out without going all the way to the end of the muzzle, it creates a barb that pulls basically anything out that is in there.

[md7989]

Im not sure if I missed anything, but did you try one of your old cases that you did get to fire? That will at least take out the possibility its a headspace issue such as debris is stuck on the shoulder in the chamber. You may even cut the neck off one of your cases and if it fits but you full case doesn't, then its in the neck part of the chamber, obviously. After you do those two steps, its obviously the bullet. I assume since you said you lost some ogive to base length, then you must have data on your original. Make sure you didn't somehow get bullets mixed up and are using a differen't bullet. I doubt you are, but its surprising the little things we miss because we are so worried about something being much worse.

I mean .1675 of length is substantial. It kind of sounds like you lost your freebore somehow. Im not sure I understand that...Its possible you had some brass flow that got stuck due to overly long case length?? Maybe try running a brass brush down through from the muzzle if you havent already. Just be careful at the crown.

You can also push the brush up through the chamber end, and pull it back out after you get just past the throat area. I dont necessarily advise it, but ive done it in a pinch when I get a stuck case. The brushes fold backwards, so when you try to pull back out without going all the way to the end of the muzzle, it creates a barb that pulls basically anything out that is in there.

Thanks for the reply. To answer your questions:

Yes, I took one of the old cases that fed and fired without an issue, and it will chamber smoothly as it should. I actually did this with 5 random cases from the lot of spent casings and they were all good.

And yes, when using the modified case and length gauge, the same modified case, same length gauge, and same individual 140 gr AMAX projectile were used as before when I got the data before this past range session/issue occurred. Also when I measured and got the 0.1675" loss of length, I could not force the bullet past whatever obstruction was causing that marring/contact on the leade area. I applied decent force, but did not overdo it as I know how easily it should glide into making contact with the lands as it did before.

I used a brush and scrubbed it well being careful to not nick or damage anything. I also took a cordless drill on low speed and barely made it rotate with chucking up a small pistol cleaning rod with a 30 cal brush attached with solvent on it to clean out anything right there before the lands start. It apparently cleared something up, but something is still there that was not before and should not be now.

[Keyhole]

I would measure the headspace of my ammo and look for scuffs on the body. Especially the ones that will chamber and those that won't. It doesn't take but a few thousandths to keep you out of battery if the factory ammo is close to zero headspace to begin with. That may be within the variation of your ammo, factory ammo usually has a few thou of variation in headspace. You can also dump the powder and shell out of one that won't chamber and size it with a die and see if that fixes it.

[md7989]

I would measure the headspace of my ammo and look for scuffs on the body. Especially the ones that will chamber and those that won't. It doesn't take but a few thousandths to keep you out of battery if the factory ammo is close to zero headspace to begin with. That may be within the variation of your ammo, factory ammo usually has a few thou of variation in headspace. You can also dump the powder and shell out of one that won't chamber and size it with a die and see if that fixes it.

Headspace still is in check as I verified using a buddy's go/no-go gauges yesterday (I should have mentioned that before, my apologies). All fired casings/bodies don't show any scuffs or marring or nicks at all, the marring is only occurring on the leade are of the projectile itself.

I terms of the variation of factory ammo, I agree. That is in part why when I measured my max length with the modified case (way back before this issue arose) I took the average of 20 measurements from a box of Hornady 140 gr AMAX ammo. Then I used that average to see that the distance factory 140 AMAX was from the lands was 0.020".

And to be honest I do not want to resize any of my ammo. The rifle shot 45 rounds of 140 gr AMAX factory loads just fine and chambered them as smooth as a hot knife through butter. Then the 4 120 gr factory AMAX were shot fine and then this buildup or whatever occurred. So structurally/dimensionally under whatever buildup/burr is now present, I think I am good in terms of length to shoot the long factory 140 gr AMAX.

That is what is so puzzling...flawless feeding/chambering, then 4 rounds of different ammo and the problem hit like a train.

[lrshooting]

Headspace still is in check as I verified using a buddy's go/no-go gauges yesterday (I should have mentioned that before, my apologies). All fired casings/bodies don't show any scuffs or marring or nicks at all, the marring is only occurring on the leade are of the projectile itself.

I terms of the variation of factory ammo, I agree. That is in part why when I measured my max length with the modified case (way back before this issue arose) I took the average of 20 measurements from a box of Hornady 140 gr AMAX ammo. Then I used that average to see that the distance factory 140 AMAX was from the lands was 0.020".

And to be honest I do not want to resize any of my ammo. The rifle shot 45 rounds of 140 gr AMAX factory loads just fine and chambered them as smooth as a hot knife through butter. Then the 4 120 gr factory AMAX were shot fine and then this buildup or whatever occurred. So structurally/dimensionally under whatever buildup/burr is now present, I think I am good in terms of length to shoot the long factory 140 gr AMAX.

That is what is so puzzling...flawless feeding/chambering, then 4 rounds of different ammo and the problem hit like a train.

Okay, so you mentioned 4 rounds of a DIFFERENT ammo. So just to clarify, does your original ammo now not work after you switched? I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. I ask because you say you "checked" with go no go gauges and it was fine. I did the same, but it doesn't mean every round will feed. I had some factory privi partisan that wouldnt hardly feed in my 308. It was so tight I had to take a mallet to open the bolt after firing. No other brands did this.

Just thinking out loud here

[lrshooting]

Oh and that scratch your getting is normal in some rifles by the way. The machining process isn't a top quality job. You can cut your hand on the edge that is left some times.

If you really want to see if it is scratching, hand feed the bullet into the chamber pushing it with your finger. When you eject, push the case down so that it doesn't drag on the way out.

[md7989]

Okay, so you mentioned 4 rounds of a DIFFERENT ammo. So just to clarify, does your original ammo now not work after you switched? I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. I ask because you say you "checked" with go no go gauges and it was fine. I did the same, but it doesn't mean every round will feed. I had some factory privi partisan that wouldnt hardly feed in my 308. It was so tight I had to take a mallet to open the bolt after firing. No other brands did this.

Just thinking out loud here

My apologies, let me clarify it a bit for the lifetime of the rifle:

Before shooting the gun ever, I measured overall chamber length using the modified case, length gauge and 140 gr AMAX projectile. I got 2.2155". Then I shot a total of 25 factory Hornady 140 gr AMAX (over the course of the past 3 months...been busy with work). Then this past weekend I shot 20 more of the factory 140 gr AMAX. All was well at this point and smooth as silk. Then I opened a box of factory Hornady 120 gr AMAX. I loaded a magazine of 5 and shot 4 of them. So rounds 46-49 on the rifle's lifetime were 120 gr AMAX. Then as I attempted to chamber the 5th 120 gr AMAX (50th round overall) it would not chamber and I had the issue that is at hand.

So yes, now I am having difficulty with my original ammo (140 gr AMAX) and also some difficulty with the 120 gr AMAX. None of the ammo (regardless of weight, 120 or 140) had feeding/chambering/scratching/marring issues before. Now the 120s are getting scratched up and the 140s are tight to chamber and get the marks on the leade area of the projectile.

But the headspace was checked before I ever fired the rifle by us (me and friend who has the gauges) when it arrived. Then I measured max chamber length and found it to be sufficient enough to shoot the long 140 factory loads no problem. Then this happened, but headspace is still adjusted properly...it's just whatever has built up somehow obstructing/interferring with that extra length of the 140s as well as something scratching the 120s & 140s.

[22 Mag]

"When I chamber a factory 120 gr AMAX, it makes a scar/scratch down the length of the bullet from just under the polymer tip to right before the case starts. When I load a factory 140 gr AMAX, I get marring on the leade area of the bullet and the bolt is hard to close with noticeable resistance on closing and opening the bolt. The bolt cycles fine with no ammo present and also cycles fine when using a spent piece of brass I previously fired. It's almost like some type of buildup is there around the leade area that I can't get out but it only developed in those 4 shots with the 120s."

To me it sounds like you have a foreign object imbedded into the "leade" area of the barrel. It makes a mark on the bullets, but will not stop an empty case from being chambered. I do not think this object is "carbon" I would believe carbon would take more than 24 rounds to build up this much.
You could try a .264 brass bore brush like you tried the 30 cal brush, but push it up into the leade area and rotate it with the same drill. This might "pop" out whatever is in the leade area. After you have done this run a bore brush in from the muzzle to push the object out the back.

Please keep us updated on your progress.

22 Mag

[m12lrs]

Where is the bore scope when you need it.

Sounds like.a carbon ring but if so it built up really fast. That throat isn't even broke in yet. Could be copper or lead buildup from a really rough machining in the leade.

Find you somebody with a bore scope and take a look.

[J.Baker]

When in doubt find a gunsmith with a bore scope.

[md7989]

Here are some photos guys with the bore scope/endoscope that arrived from Amazon this afternoon. Not the best but it's better than nothing. The first pic is before cleaning again with the Sweets 7.62 and the second if after another cleaning. Not much difference in terms of what it got out. Initial cleaning pulled copper and powder fouling, but only about as much as expected, which wasn't much due to low round count.

I still have the issue with the 120s getting scratched and the 140s getting somewhat scratched and being difficult to close the bolt on, producing marring on the leade area. And yes, I scrubbed all around the chamber and leade areas with multiple brushes with no change. I'm stumped and luckily a coworker is good friends with a good gunsmith here close by, so hopefully later this week it'll be in his hands.

Before:



After (only change was added fuzzies):

[Robinhood]

Time for a chamber cast if you don't want tot take it to get bore scoped.

[md7989]

Time for a chamber cast if you don't want tot take it to get bore scoped.

The smith I'm taking it to will scope it better than I can for sure. I'm interested in seeing how this turns out. It just doesn't make sense though and would be my luck

[lrshooting]

Man, that is weird. I dont see any major machining issues. I could see a chip getting embedded and then getting torn out during firing that would cause scratching and issues feeding. Thats a long shot though. Its really pretty hard to tell just by the pictures.

Im kind of like you...im really reluctant to take it to anybody and ill spend good money figuring it out myself before I do. Its a win win either way since I end up with new tools! But at this point, consider it. If you dont want to, then get a 6.5 CM reamer, and hand ream that chamber. I dont mean push it into the shoulder, I just mean do it until that reamer hits the shoulder and dont go any further or youll mess up your headspace. The point is to ream whatever it is in the throat back out. Good luck!

[md7989]

Man, that is weird. I dont see any major machining issues. I could see a chip getting embedded and then getting torn out during firing that would cause scratching and issues feeding. Thats a long shot though. Its really pretty hard to tell just by the pictures.

Im kind of like you...im really reluctant to take it to anybody and ill spend good money figuring it out myself before I do. Its a win win either way since I end up with new tools! But at this point, consider it. If you dont want to, then get a 6.5 CM reamer, and hand ream that chamber. I dont mean push it into the shoulder, I just mean do it until that reamer hits the shoulder and dont go any further or youll mess up your headspace. The point is to ream whatever it is in the throat back out. Good luck!

Thanks bud! Really appreciate you guys responding quickly and willing to help give ideas. I'm like you, I'd like to actually fix it myself or be there and see it fixed in person rather than ship it off to Savage and it magically be fine when shipped back. I'm hopefully getting the gun to the smith in the next day or so. I'll keep y'all posted.

[RMGunner]

Your rifle has the same issue my new Savage Creed had. In short, the throat is cut at groove diameter, or .0005" under SAAMI minimum for the chamber. I'll bet your barrel was cut with the same under-sized reamer mine was???

Read my thread here for an explanation with photos, and how I fixed the issue.
http://65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=4319.0

[md7989]

Your rifle has the same issue my new Savage Creed had. In short, the throat is cut at groove diameter, or .0005" under SAAMI minimum for the chamber. I'll bet your barrel was cut with the same under-sized reamer mine was???

Read my thread here for an explanation with photos, and how I fixed the issue.
http://65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=4319.0

RMGunner, man what a thread you have over there! Thank you for the information, it is much appreciated. I will forward that thread over to the gunsmith and hope that he can do the exact same thing you did (I see no reason why he couldn't).

You wouldn't still happen to have that little setup for lapping now would you? This is the exact reason why I always wish I had even the smallest amount of machining tools or a small lathe...sooo much I could do myself

[Hector]

Your rifle has the same issue my new Savage Creed had. In short, the throat is cut at groove diameter, or .0005" under SAAMI minimum for the chamber. I'll bet your barrel was cut with the same under-sized reamer mine was???

Read my thread here for an explanation with photos, and how I fixed the issue.
http://65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=4319.0

I have this same problem with my 6BR... Instead of the hand lapping, would the "Tubbs Final Finish" bore polishing bullets work also?

[Hector]

No opinions?

[Robinhood]

If you have ten plus barrels to learn how to lap, and I don't know what issue your having that lapping would fix, then you might just get the chamber fixed or throated.

[Hector]

Say what?? Did you read the entire thread?

[Robinhood]

I have read the OP's issue. The whole first page discusses what md7989 was asking about. You entered the conversation at post 19.

Say what?? Did you read the entire thread?

Instead of the hand lapping, would the "Tubbs Final Finish" bore polishing bullets work also?

I read this and was wondering how that equated to the issue of the bullet rubbing on the lands and what would Tubbs do for you. I offered an opinion on hand lapping and an opinion on using Tubbs lapping bullets. Tubbs will not fix the issue being discussed in my opinion. You may have a lot more experience than I have though.

I'm thinking that another option is to start your own post to avoid hijacking the thread.

[md7989]

I have read the OP's issue. The whole first page discusses what md7989 was asking about. You entered the conversation at post 19.






I read this and was wondering how that equated to the issue of the bullet rubbing on the lands and what would Tubbs do for you. I offered an opinion on hand lapping and an opinion on using Tubbs lapping bullets. Tubbs will not fix the issue being discussed in my opinion. You may have a lot more experience than I have though.

I'm thinking that another option is to start your own post to avoid hijacking the thread.

To be more exact, I don't think my bullets are not touching the lands. I never get and "rifling marks" on the bullets...the throat area before the lands is too tight and it rubs around the ogive area back to right before the case starts on some bullets.

It's at the gunsmith still and I'm actually getting a little annoyed about it. A simple 20 min job that I clearly wrote out on a note what I wanted done, yet he still hasn't done it. The smith is a good friend of a good friend from where I work. So it sucks getting info from the middle man so-to-speak. It's also annoying when I asked my middle man if he had a status on it the other day that the smith told him he hadn't found anything out of the normal on it yet...which tells me 1) he hasn't even looked at it yet or 2) he didn't even read the notes I wrote down or the printout of the thread where the guy detailed how he fixed his issue

[Hector]

I have read the OP's issue. The whole first page discusses what md7989 was asking about. You entered the conversation at post 19.

I read this and was wondering how that equated to the issue of the bullet rubbing on the lands and what would Tubbs do for you. I offered an opinion on hand lapping and an opinion on using Tubbs lapping bullets. Tubbs will not fix the issue being discussed in my opinion. You may have a lot more experience than I have though.

I'm thinking that another option is to start your own post to avoid hijacking the thread.

First of all, I don't understand how you can equate my question to thread hijacking. md7989 had responded with a quote in post 18, to post 17, from RMGunner who included a link, which I also read, pertaining to an under sized throat problem that he had and md7989 believes he has also. My question in post 19 was referring to how RMGunner in his link resolved his tight throat problem with hand lapping and would the Tubbs work with the same results.

I assumed that someone else besides md7989 and my self read the attched link from RMGunner... I guess I was wrong. Post 24 should help you understand.
Sorry for the confusion.